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Kevin Bacon

The Forced Induction VR6 thread

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Really 7-800HP do you think.

 

and hold out for the 500 hp corrado in the second part. Somebody please tell me thats not running 280s still !! wtf

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kevhaywire wrote

Still plenty to go on mine mate! The engine side of it is done. Still to do - oil return, intercooler pipework, exhaust down pipe, fit water tank in boot etc etc.

 

Have you got an external wastegate? If so you'll need a vacuum feed to the side input and the top one vents to atmosphere. The wastegate exhaust output needs to route back into the downpipe or feed off under the car somewhere. Porsche normally use a seperate little exhaust system (with silencer!) on their wastegates, so seems as good a method as any. Routing the gate back into the downpipe can interrupt the turbine anyway, but is the most refined method. You'll only hear it when the boost exceeds your preset limit anyway, so not that often. Have you got a boost controller? Might be a good investment for the future.

 

Dump valve can plumb into the discharge pipe about a 2 foot away from the turbo.

 

I suspect your FPR's 'under pressure' pipe being the smaller of the 3 could be the vacuum feed. Not sure. Need to see it really. DV & boost guage can take vac feeds from the servo line (has 2 outlets on it) and the wastegate should come with instructions as some take a vac feed after the throttle, rather than before.

 

Im running external wastegate kev, the kit came with an EIP exhaust on it, you can see on the picture below, you can see on the picture where pipes attatch to it, so if i leave the top one to atmosphere but then the side one to a vac, ill find out if its pre throttle or not today.

Ive put a picture of the FPR below, its the yellow pipe (smallest one) im trying to find a home for, i think it will go into the side of the inlet manifold just like the stock regulator which is on the fuel rail.

The dump valve mounts to the inlet pipe about 10" away from the throttle body it then has two inlet/outlets on it, ive pictured it below i need to find a home for these.

Boost controller, i have a mechanical one for now where will this plumb into as i thought it would go into the top of the wastegate. ill see what the driveability is like with it and if its a bit fierce ill buy an electronic controller.

Ive found everything pretty easy going up to now with all the mechanical side of it it makes a change from working on bikes thats for sure !! everything is sorted and fitted to the car now all i need to do is work out where these pipes for the boost pressure etc go and the car can go back on the road. weather is foggy up here today so i cant do any painting so im having another day on the car. it might be on the road today ????

 

Jimmi........................................................

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Right then ive just had to move the Corrado to the other side of my workshop to get my M3 in the garage so it can be cleaned and covered up for winter, its foggy and cold today up here, autumn has certainly arrived !!!

I reconnected the FPR and adjusted it so the pressure was on the minimum setting, the car fired straight up so i adjusted the regulator so it shows 58 psi @ idle, when the car is revved at stand still the pressure gauge rises by about 10 psi so ill leave it fitted it will probably rise more when under load. ill look into getting one of those schimmel ones sent across from the US.

 

I took a quick pic of the engine bay wheni was looking @ it this morning, ill do some better ones when its cleaned and all the hoses are tidied up !!

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Hi All,

not been on for a while, thought I'd give you progress so far.

 

MegaSquirt built up and tested on the bench.

 

Old Motronic ECU providing donor connector for patch box on car. I'm going to use all the standard sensors (even MAF will be wired as a fall back sensor). Throttle pot goes backwards apparently (ie 5v to 0v ish not the other way).

 

Main engine control will be via MAP sensor and engine speed.

 

MS supports all the stuff I need, closed loop boost control, wasted spark, water injection, charge cooler fan control, closed loop wideband, closed loop idle control etc etc

 

Plan now is to get it up and running on the standard car to test how well it works (or doesn't).

 

Injection is by bank, not ideal for emissions but should work well and won't have to wait for cam sensor sync like on sequential when starting.

 

The Megatune software is very good (I've spoken with several guys who develope calibrations for current Bosch systems and it appears that most things are covered with MS).

 

All told it owes me about £200 so far plus my time (a few days or so).

 

Future... this little lot needs sorting!

 

turbobits.jpg

 

Nice wheels Kev, been looking at lots of wheels lately cos the brakes I want won't fit...

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Looks like a Merc Eaton M62 charger to me. Was browsing earlier and found these vids.........(1st one mk2 VR6 12v turbo, 2nd one SP Jetta driven by Bill Schimmel on a "Sunday drive".......3rd is EIP Tuning's mk3 VR6 12v turbo doing nearly 11 sec qtr dead)

 

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... =vr6+turbo

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... =vr6+turbo

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... =vr6+turbo

 

Enjoy

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Sounds good Kev, I went out in Stephens mk2 VRT and it was mental with the T-70 :lol: I do think you'll need to refit the 3.3 FD , Tommy was saying his was just wheelspin-tastic with the 3.6..

 

 

Scouring links from ame-racing.de....

 

VR Turbo...

 

http://turbo.heizpack.de/TachoVR6-T.wmv 0-280k's in 20secs

 

http://turbo.heizpack.de/Leistungsmessung.WMV on the rollers 700+ps

 

http://www.ame-racing.de/dragracer/galerie-VR6.shtml

 

http://www.ame-racing.de/images/AME-RACING%20Rally-Golf%202.pdf rr graph

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LOL, that turbo is not big...... the 35R is a midsize frame turbo from Garrett's BB line up and good for about 550-600hp with James's turbine A/R.

 

These are BIG turbos ;-)

 

triple_threat_home.jpg

 

Yes the Schimmel manifold is defo well worth it as part of the charge air temp reduction process. That and a good inter/charge cooler will give lightening throttle response, very cool intake temps, very low boost drop and much simpler/shorter pipe work.

 

KAD_VR6 - Which sender did you T - off for the oil feed to your charger? If you T-d off the oil temp sender, it will affect the readings. Best to T-off the left oil pressure sender.

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Turbo fitting guide.

 

Most of you have seen this already, but it's for the benefit of newbies too ;-)

 

This basic guide is based on my old 2.9 engine with OBD2 management. Apart from the Schimmel stuff specific to my install, it's all pretty much the same procedure, give or take a few things. Apart from the down pipe welding, I did all of it myself and tbh it's dead easy. There's no mystery, black art or massive technical skill required, just patience and a methodical approach. Oh, and a good tool kit ;-)

 

Before undertaking the project, you'll need one of these, a proper RHD manifold. The ATP manifold can be used, but needs a little modding and the turbo reversing, but it's not biggy.

 

7.jpg

 

Probably the most ardous and boring bit of the whole conversion is making a down pipe.....

 

downpipe.jpg

 

But first you'll need to fit the turbo so that you know where to align the downpipe to.

 

After stripping all the ancills and manifolds etc off, time up the engine. If you're going down the short runner path and inter/chargecooler etc, your car will more than likely need to be gutted like this:-

 

Stripped_front_end.jpg

 

Anyway, the timing -

 

Cams should align like this -

 

Cam_tool.jpg

 

Crank timing marks should align like this -

 

Timing_mark.jpg

 

And the chains should be like this -

 

Chains.jpg

 

Off with the head and fit a spacer. 9:1 is good to a bar, anything over and 8.5:1 is preferable. If you're using a plain stainless spacer, you'll need a MK4 gasket from VW to pinch the top and bottom layers from. Now would also be a good time to screw in your ARP headbolts too ;-)

 

Spacer_gasket.jpg

 

Check the head whilst it's off for excess wear in the guides and burned out valves. They all look like this. This one did 40K since a rebuild. They don't stay clean for long!

 

Head_not_too_clever.jpg

 

The block was looking a tad past it at 140K, but it was OK in reality.

 

Worn_bottom_end.jpg

 

Drop the sump and fit the ARP conrod bolts

 

ARP_rod_bolt_install.jpg

 

Can you spot the difference between ARP and stock rod bolts?

 

ARP_versus_VW_rod_bolts.jpg

 

With the ARP rod bolts in, pop the head on and torque the ARP nuts up to 75lb/ft and then plumb in your turbo's oil feed. You should get an adapter for the filter housing like this one.

 

Oil_feed.jpg

 

VR6 head bolt tightening sequence

 

VR6_head_bolt_seq.jpg

 

Stick your turbo on the manifold and do the bolts up to 60lb/ft and then shove the assembly onto the head, oh and make sure the compressor outlet is facing the right way first :)

 

turbo_manifold.jpg

 

Don't do what I did and run the oil feed over the hot side of the turbo, it will melt and cause a fire. Run it over the cold side (compressor).

 

turbo_fitted.jpg

 

Now the dull bit..... Downpipe building. Gradually mock it up with different bends and straights (from Jetex or where ever) until you get something like this....

 

downpipe1.jpg

 

downpipe3.jpg

 

downpipe4.jpg

 

downpipe5.jpg

 

exhaust.jpg

 

downpipe6.jpg

 

Lambda.jpg

 

completed_frontpipe.jpg

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More....

 

Once you've done that, it's time to get the intersting bits out!

 

Schimmel_parts.jpg

 

Fitting the Schimmel chargecooler prerad...

 

heat_exchanger.jpg

 

A small amount of cutting and shutting required at the bottom of the slam panel's centre turret.

 

heat_exchanger1.jpg

 

Bumper back on and you wouldn't know it was there.

 

heat_exchanger2.jpg

 

Washer bottle, chargecooler tank (3 gal) and battery installed the boot.

 

boot1.jpg

 

Water lines for the chargecooler go under the back seat, so some good hole cutters are essential.

 

waterlines2.jpg

 

Where they come through the floor, use some grommets and plenty of seam sealer and / or wax oyl (black).

 

waterlines3.jpg

 

waterlines1.jpg

 

Then you just cable tie them to the brake lines and run up the engine bay.

 

Waterlines.jpg

 

I suppose the next job is fabricating all the boost pipes etc

 

boost1.jpg

 

Look at that, it's almost like VW knew a turbo would end up on this engine.... the throttle body coolant lines are handy feeds for the GT turbo too ;-)

 

boost.jpg

 

It's a good idea to heat shield everything down here, especially the brake lines and rubber heater hoses etc.

 

intake_shield1.jpg

 

Then you gradually peice it all together - I did say it was a basic guide :-) - to look something like the below snap. I'm using a BEGI boost dependant FPR to go with my OBD2 management and Sytec uprated pump. It works brilliantly. Ignore the usual "you musn't exceed 85% of the injector's flow rate" forum comments. Injector flow rate DOES increase with pressure at 100% duty. I was using standard injectors and it kicked like a mule on boost. I went onto the DTA management eventually, but more on that later.

 

finished.jpg

 

That's pretty much it. I didn't go into the oil return details as some people prefer to drain back to the block instead of the sump. I'll get some pics up of this method soon. As I say, it's a basic over view, but a few of us are on hand to answer any techie questions.

 

When it's all done, this will be a common occurence under your bonnet :-)

 

glowing.jpg

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More....

 

I'm sure I missed a few things out, but nevermind, onto the refinements 8)

 

Putting it bluntly, the standard coil pack is [email protected] Everyone hates them. They overheat and crack and the spark output is too weak for the standard engine, let alone a force fed one. So what you want is some nice fat MSD coils, which throw around 40KV at your plugs, approx double that of the standard coilpack.

 

MSD_coils.jpg

 

MSD_coils1.jpg

 

More details of that on request.

 

I find it's a good idea to keep an eye on EGT temps (Exhaust Gas Temp), so I found the most OE looking one, right down to the black on green LCD display and mounted it in my clocks

 

EGT_display.jpg

 

As mentioned earlier, I upgraded to the DTA P8PRo management which has been a very steep, but worthwhile learning curve. I stuck it in the glovebox initially, but later moved it out of there and onto the passenger shelf. I will be doing another post soon with map screen shots to get people started who are also considering the DTA or other standalone.

 

DTA_P8Pro.jpg

 

DTA_glovebox.jpg

 

And then of course I went out to 2967cc with JE pistons, which went a bit pear shaped...

 

3litre.jpg

 

But that was sorted and it's rocking and rolling now :-)

 

That's it for now... more to come, mainly some DTA maps etc to whet your appetites for all things standalone 8)

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Kev, thanks for the tidy-up on here. Tbh I had never got around to reading the whole thread as it was just too long, so this is a great, pared down, what you need to know guide.

 

A couple of questions re my 'charger install:

1. Firstly, I was slightly disappointed to be only seeing 276 bhp and 246 lb ft with my recently fitted Stg 2 kit. Now it could be down to the fact that the engine has only done 2500 since a complete Stealth rebuild, so may yet free up a bit. It this likely?

 

2. I am still playing around trying to get the Aquamist to kick in. The DDS3 appears to be working fine, but I still have managed to trigger the sensor into life to get the WI working. I have unwound that flathead screw 1 whole turn now, and still nothing. Anything else to try before I give Vince a call, or shall I continue to persevere with the screw, and carry on unwinding?

 

TYIA :D

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The outputs do seem to vary between engines with the same kit, but only by a small margin. At the high rpms where your boost is, you're not going to feel a 10hp deficit compared with someone else's.

 

My best figures with my OBD2 stage 2 (dyno plots in this thread) were 289hp and 257lb/ft, but it didn't feel any quicker than NickVR6's and his figures are roughly the same as yours, but I appreciate it's nice to see the good numbers on the graph though 8)

 

The engine might loosen up a bit with more miles, but engine rebuilders can't build their engines with the same robot precision and consistency as VW, so it won't be as tight as a factory unit, so if the output doesn't improve at say, 10,000 miles, then I doubt it ever will tbh.

 

With the aquamist, I had to turn the screw almost fully out to get it to trigger. Same with Nick's. We did a road test and had to pull over and adjust it about 3 or 4 times to get it where we wanted it!

Keep trying it. Do it with the ignition on because that way you will know if you've gone too far as the pump will activate.

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Hmm. Just read a good chunk of an old thread about enlarged throttle bodies. That is one diference between my car and Nickvr6's. Might help explain his 10 bhp and 10 ftlb advantage over my engine. Just as thought. Thing is, I suppose I'll need a remap if i go and fit one of those now, being mafless. :? Probably not worth it at the mo'.

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Nah, not worth it and certainly wouldn't give 10hp on it's own. My OBD2 289hp run was with a standard throttle body, which is even smaller than a standard OBD1 body!

 

If Corrados had OBD2, they'd all make 290 with 260lbs all day long with Stage 2. It's just far, far superior to OBD1, but enough of that :)

 

Your torque curve must be fatter than Nick's in the low rpms with your VSR though?

 

I bet if you two did a standing start race there'd be nothing in it 8)

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