What's quicker - FWD vs RWD

[mic_VR 3]

Evenin' chaps and chapess', thought I'd ask a little question as I appear to be fighting a losing battle with my father so I want a bit more info. (please bear in mind I'm no race engineer or Lewis Hamilton)

 

What's going to be quicker, a front wheel drive car or a rear wheel drive car or does it not really make much difference? (assume similar power, weight, and handling properties and driven on the same roads etc and similar driver skill)

 

Reason I ask is that I'm planning on spending a small fortune this year on making my VR fairly powerful and it's been commented that if I want to go quick I should just be buying a RWD car and modding that (basically people seem to think it's a waste of money in a FWD). But I've been thinking about it and these are my thoughts on the matter.

 

Yes a RWD will have better traction away from a standing start and up to a certain speed but once rolling it surely doesn't make much difference whether your high powered car is spinning up the front or rear tyres?

 

Also, to actually drive fast in any car surely you want to minimise any lose of traction be it front or rear wheels?

 

Understeer in a FWD is considered safer and more predictable than oversteer?

 

Now I've seen a few BTCC/WTCC races and those things really shift, and the FWD cars often beat the RWD cars...... and I've seen some pretty quick FWD track cars that make mincemeat of BMW's and the like....

 

Sorry if I'm being thick but am I missing something about RWD that makes it better other than the fun factor? Is it the weight distribution? All help/info apprecated, as usual. :salute:

 

Mic

[dukest 0]

In my massively-unqualified understanding of it Mic the main point is that the driven wheels are less likely to break traction the closer they match the direction that the car is travelling in. If you try to power out of a corner in front wheel drive there are more directional forces working on the contact area of the front tyres. Theoretically in a rear wheel drive car the rear tyres have to only worry about providing drive and the front tyres only have to provide directional change. Sorry if thats stating the obvious, and as you say, there are still some very quick fwd cars. I think the weight distribution point you refer to is not insignificant on grip either. Oh and also, I think pushing a load is easier than pulling it again due to the impact on grip.

 

Interesting to hear more educated views though!

[Leonard 0]

I think RWD is the correct answer :grin: However there is no doubt that you can make a FWD car go VERY fast.

 

If you havent already go and test drive a Mazda RX8 or similar and feel the purity of the steering and ride. Lovely. But then it sounds like a bag of nails in a washing machine, which is a shame LOL

[was8v 0]

hmmm toughie.

 

When developing the Elan M100 Lotus kept saying the fastest car will be FWD, and look what they developed. A car that was so safe and quick it was boring - every review was stunned by its handling but lamented it for being too accomplished and it took the fun out of driving. A great technology showcase for sure but not a fun involving drivers car. A very quick point to point car for sure.

 

When developing the Elise they went with rear drive and a transverse mid engine for cost and packging reasons. This car is more involving and fun to drive but point to point compared to an Elan M100 with the same power its no quicker.

 

I'd say if what you are after is the fastest car then for sure FWD can give you it. It you want a fun involving, balanced driver's car then it has to be RWD.

 

Good FWD cars like the Corrado and integra have good fun involving handling on the road, but on track I'd wager RWD is a more fun experience.

 

4WD (Evo, impreza etc) will beat both fwd and rwd round a track (assuming everything else is constant - power, weight) but which would strike the best balance of performance and fun? probably something RWD.

[vwdeviant 0]

Like saying which is better

 

Ham

 

 

 

Or

 

 

 

Cheese

 

:norty: :cuckoo:

 

I'd say get the FWD knockers to take a trip in Mr-Wires car then say RWD is better!

 

But if I have the option.. I'd go 4wd all day! (Haldex Mic?)

 

As you say in BTCC/WTCC there's some tracks that suit FWD and some that suit RWD... it really is horses and courses, in the "Real world" it's more down to the person sat in the car...

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Dukest is spot on.

 

The main benefit of RWD is uncorrupted steering and zero torque steer. Mechanically, it's the perfect layout. All the heavy parts sit within the car's centre line and also behind the front axle line (BMWs especially). Nice balanced prop and equal length rear shafts. Doesn't get much better than that imo :D

 

As we know, powerful FWD cars can swap lanes the torque steer is so bad. A powerful RWD car will twitch it's a tail a little (if there's an LSD fitted) and all you do is ease off the gas a touch to bring it back in line, or if you're a road hero, just keep it planted and adjust the line with corrective steering :D

 

Having owned both RWD and FWD, it's never a simple case of "which is better?". It's entirely down to personal preference and what the car will be used for.

 

When it comes to full bore launches, I'd take RWD every time. For fast B road point to point, I'd take FWD. On a track, I'd defo take RWD. 4WD is off topic a little, but it can understeer just as easily as FWD in many cases, the Subaru's and Haldex VWs in particular.

 

Although RWD is technically superior, it doesn't always offer the driver involvement Was8v mentioned. I've gotten out of a M3s and 911s (E36 and 993)and found the Corrado more rewarding to drive for some reason.

 

What ever floats your boat really!

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence Mr Deviant but I'm not afraid to admit my car has too much power for the chassis, but that's fun in it's own unique way :lol:

[was8v 0]

Although RWD is technically superior, it doesn't always offer the driver involvement Was8v mentioned. I've gotten out of a M3s and 911s (E36 and 993)and found the Corrado more rewarding to drive for some reason.

 

 

Indeed, too much boils down to the car and the driver, meaning you cannot make a wide sweeping generalisation like "RWD is better than FWD".

 

Many people would prefer to hoon around in a classic mini cooper over an M3, and likewise there will be many who prefer it the other way round.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Mini Coopers need their own seperate classification of fun :D

 

The E36 M3 I found quite frustrating overall. It's a big, heavy car and therefore not easy to place confidently on tight B roads. You feel it's weight and size and the steering is too vague, over assisted and lacking in feedback.....despite it's inherent benefits over FWD.

I would always take a smaller car like a Clio 182 Trophy on that sort of road, in preference to a super saloon or super car.

 

From a standing start though, the M3 is completely drama free. Dial in 3500rpm, side step the clutch and it just grips and heads off to the horizon perfectly controlled and in a straight line! I can't do that in the Corrado due to spin and torque steer.

 

The 993 was similar in standing start take offs. Smooth and easy and had massively better steering feel than the M3, but it still lacks that granular feedback the Corrado gives you. The 993 also felt totally understeer free on public roads.....but again, difficult to place on tight roads. You're aware of that wide arse potentially clipping a kerb and it saps your confidence.

 

I keep going on about B roads, but they represent a big proportion of my daily journey and so many cars come unstuck on those kind of roads. The Corrado's not perfect, but it's very accomplished for it's age and basic platform.

[davidwort 0]

quite funny watching an RX8 try to make it's way up an icy road near my home yesterday, when my father in law had his MR2 he ended up leaving it at the bottom of the hill and walking home one evening :lol: no such drama in the C, FWD with the engine weight over the wheels can be quite useful sometimes!

 

As a pretty mediocre driver I don't think I could ever trust myself in a vaguely powerful RWD car unless the electronics drove it for me, but I did enjoy driving a friends Boxter for a bit in the summer, I can see RWD could be very rewarding if your skills are up to it.

[mic_VR 3]

definitely some interesting responses chaps and I can see why people would prefer one or the other. Unfortunately I've not had the pleasure of owning/driving a decent RWD car (had a few aircooled vw's but it's not the same) so all my driving experience is either FWD or 4WD vehicles.

 

I do want to stick with the C really rather than getting something else mainly because I can't think of a realistic RWD car that I'd want to own, but that said I'm worried about having 350bhp and little chance of really using it.

 

Maybe I'll get back into motorbikes for weekend fun! :lol:

[dinkus 10]

I agree with all of the above.

 

The general rule of thumb seems to be anything more than 300bhp (or more importly lb/ft of torque) through the front wheels gets a bit tricky to control.

 

Essentially a tyre can either speed up/slow down or turn. It doesn't do both at the same time very well, hence why torque steer when accelerating hard becomes and issue.

 

Having said that, a RWD car with silly power is even more likely to throw you backwards into a ditch than a front wheel drive one as the back gets a lot more twitchy. Again, it's related to a tyre only being able to do one thing at once.

 

If you accelerate hard coming out of a corner in a FWD car and the front tyres lose grip and slide wide, you can correct it with steering.

If you accelerate hard coming out of a corner in a RWD car and the rear tyres lose grip and slide wide... you can't correct it with steering, you can only fix it with your foot. If you're skilled enough, you can still cope with it, but it tends to be a bit easier to throw it backwards into a ditch :lol:

[The_Dude 0]

I can't reall y add much to what has been said, but the way I've always seen it is this -

 

FWD is more forgiving on the limit, it will more likely wash out wide with understeer, whereas RWD will try to swap ends on you, so for the more inexperienced/ cautious/ cash conscious driver FWD will be better.

 

If you consider yourself a driving god then there is more speed to be had from RWD (iirc the btcc rwds have weight penalties to even them up) but you'll need reactions of a fly to counter snap oversteer. I reckon tho you are more likely to crash before learning how to properly powerslide round a corner. There's more scope for going faster but also the same can be said for losing it and spinning off. (says he who span off twice lol - i blame the stretched tyres i was using)

 

If FWD was better then surely all F1 cars would have it. But it isn't and they don't.

[corozin 0]

The BTCC rear wheel drive cars carry a weight penalty simply because in the hands of a good racing driver a RWD car can be driven more quickly in most conditions than a FWD car can. But as most manufacturers build FWD cars these days (for reasons of cost & packaging) they need to make the two types equivalent.

 

With a RWD car front end does less work because the front tyres don't have to deal with the stresses of engine torque as well as braking and turning. The overall work of the car is shared more evenly between the axles. In addition a RWD car carries a better natural weight balance because of the rear drivetrain weight.

 

Conversely a FWD car has better mechanical grip to the driven wheels because the engine is pushing down on them, but it's a simple advantage. If you are trying to get grip on a limited grip surface this works very well, but if you are trying to obtain pure maximum acceleration in good grip then RWD is better because the COG of the car moves rearwards in those situations. That's why top dragsters are all RWD but also why RWD cars fall all over the place in icy car-parks.

 

On a racetrack very different styles of driving are required as you can see when you watch the BTCC, and particularly with regard to how kerbs are handled. FWD 'pulls' a car over kerbs and so can be driven very aggressively were the RWD cars have to be more careful (in a BTCCC sense) because kerbs upset the balance of the car more. But RWD cars can be more aggressive when trail braked, and indeed can be left-foot braked more effectively to gain ground in the hands of an experienced driver. It's also a easier to adjust the drift angle RWD car.

 

But these are small differences to people like you & I. You need to know what you are doing to get the advantage out of RWD, and would probably be a bit of an idiot to drive that fast on public roads to find out. The performance of a FWD car can be exploited more easily and safely to it's limit. That suits me as an everyday driving experience, but I am now yearning more and more for RWD - if only for the change of driving style that would require.

[Leonard 0]

At the end of the day the FASTEST cars on the planet are ALL RWD

 

Formula 1 Car

McLaren F1

ThrustSSC!

 

Hence RWD is faster than FWD :grin:

[Sonicriot13 0]

Wouldn't thrust SSC be no wheel drive?

[The_Dude 0]

Ooh, you're good Joe! (not in the Toad way either!)

[mic_VR 3]

ThrustSSC!

 

Hence RWD is faster than FWD :grin:

 

I just thought it was a clever chassis with a large firework strapped on the back? :lol:

[Sonicriot13 0]

ThrustSSC!

 

Hence RWD is faster than FWD :grin:

 

I just thought it was a clever chassis with a large firework strapped on the back? :lol:

 

Make that 2 large fireworks! :D

[Sonicriot13 0]

(not in the Toad way either!)

 

You speak from experience? :lol:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

At the end of the day the FASTEST cars on the planet are ALL RWD

 

Formula 1 Car

McLaren F1

ThrustSSC!

 

Hence RWD is faster than FWD :grin:

 

The Formula 1 and Mclaren F1 are mid engined, so RWD by default :D

 

For FASTEST cars on the planet, you forgot about the Top fuel drag cars...which are RWD...but not really road legal :lol:

 

The Veyron is 4WD and the fastest production car, or one of....

 

Interestingly, the 911 turbo and Nissan GTR have weird layouts.

 

911 T has a reversed 4WD drivetrain, i.e. rear engine & RWD + FWD

 

GTR has front engine, rear gearbox, RWD, plus another shaft going back to the front again. Odd! But it works damn well.

 

Anyway, Mic, why not RWD your Corrado?! Or mid engine it like Schimmel's 24V T?

[Leonard 0]

At the end of the day the FASTEST cars on the planet are ALL RWD

 

Formula 1 Car

McLaren F1

ThrustSSC!

 

Hence RWD is faster than FWD :grin:

 

The Formula 1 and Mclaren F1 are mid engined, so RWD by default :D

 

For FASTEST cars on the planet, you forgot about the Top fuel drag cars...which are RWD...but not really road legal :lol:

 

The Veyron is 4WD and the fastest production car, or one of....

 

Interestingly, the 911 turbo and Nissan GTR have weird layouts.

 

911 T has a reversed 4WD drivetrain, i.e. rear engine & RWD + FWD

 

GTR has front engine, rear gearbox, RWD, plus another shaft going back to the front again. Odd! But it works damn well.

 

Anyway, Mic, why not RWD your Corrado?! Or mid engine it like Schimmel's 24V T?

 

Engine layouts were not asked about in the original question so have no bearing on the fastest cars being RWD :tongue: :grin:

 

Never seen the SP car :shock: have you got a link to it?

[corozin 0]

ThrustSSC!

Hence RWD is faster than FWD :grin:

I just thought it was a clever chassis with a large firework strapped on the back? :lol:

Make that 2 large fireworks! :D

 

Technically Thrust SSC is a rear wheel steer chassis with a couple of bloody great Spey 205 Jet engines attached. Not a firework in sight.

[Sonicriot13 0]

Not a firework in sight.

 

Pedant! :lol:

[mic_VR 3]

Technically Thrust SSC is a rear wheel steer chassis with a couple of bloody great Spey 205 Jet engines attached. Not a firework in sight.

 

Damn, so it really isn't rocket science........

[Toad 0]

Technically Thrust SSC is a rear wheel steer chassis with a couple of bloody great Spey 205 Jet engines attached. Not a firework in sight.

 

Damn, so it really isn't rocket science........

 

ROFL.

 

There's a new car being built, once again to be piloted by Andy Green aiming for 1000mph apparently... Only 6t as opposed to Thrust's 10t weight.