VR6 Dropped Spindles/hub

[daves16v 1]

Davo, if you could take those measurements about backing plate location on your hubs or at least get some pics up so we can see what the deal is that would be good.

 

I haven't forgot, I've been busy with my OBD2 conversion. I'll try to get it done in the next few days.

[boost monkey 0]

Great news, cheers matey :D I have plenty hubs, but all 4-stud with no ABS so i don't think they'll be any use...!

[KipVR 1]

Here's one I have of the backing plates on off the hubs, not much good i know!

[boost monkey 0]

Going over the data that Kip has produced, and some ultra basic trig sketches I just knocked up, here are the geometry changes per lowering amount:

 

 

30mm drop - Wishbone up by 30, wishbone in by 1.27mm,

60mm drop - Wishbone up by 60, wishbone in by 2.54mm,

90mm(!) - Wishbone up by 90, wishbone in by 3.81mm.

 

As can be seen, the amount of lowering dictates how much correction is needed. This means that we might need an extender based on a multiple of lowering heights. Same can be said for a modded spindle - perhaps a reasonable drop could be catered for that everyone is happy with. I guess with most people using height adjustable suspension then this could be accounted for. Even using an extender designed for 50mm drop if you're at 60mm is going to be better than nothing! :-D

 

I've found a couple of reconditioned VR6 hubs (without spindles) on the bay for about £50 the pair which I am quite tempted by, purely for this project. Alternatively, if someone else would like to buy them and then donate them to our R&D project then that would be most welcome! :D They're actually for sale by Meth on here. He doesn't know they're VR6 spec so all keep schtum! :lol:

 

Also, I'm going to take the upright off the Plum and measure it. This is because it is standard VR6 gas spec, and despite being 2+ years old they've done about 10 miles to and from the aligment place in that time so they're still completely mint without even any mud on them. This isn't particularly necessary, but I work much better with visual components so a model of the upright will help me more than imagining one there attached to the hub model :lol:

 

Cheers Kip, I see what you mean about the splash guards hitting the hub/wishbone. Perhaps a slight redesign (or attack with a grinder?) may be needed, although I think we should aim to create a design which requires no other parts need to be changed (within reason).

Edited November 14, 2011 by boost monkey

[quicky1980 0]

I have a pair of vr6 hubs I can lend for a short time, just about to start my next project so would need them back soonish.

 

How long do you need them for? I can bring them to the Stealth RR day too.

[boost monkey 0]

I could prob just use one, and then make a mirror of it in CAD for the opposite side.

 

I'd just need it a few days perhaps. If you're going to put them on soon, i'm sure i could find another one. Thanks for the offer though :-)

[daves16v 1]

Are you talking about the bearing carriers or the actual splined hub? I've got a spare pair of bearing carriers you can use. I don't need them back in a hurry.

[boost monkey 0]

Ideally both matey, I'd like a whole unit assembled but I'm perfectly happy with them separate too :D

 

I guess you're in Derby area are you, judiging from the M1 J25 location?

[daves16v 1]

I don't have the hubs, let me know before the RR day if you need me to bring them.

 

Midway between Notts and Derby.

[daves16v 1]

As promised -

 

The distance from ball joint to shield is difficult to measure but is about 5mm.

[boost monkey 0]

Wow, completely missed this update! Sorry about that. Cheers Dave.

 

I've been remodelling the hub based on the IGES data. This is because the IGES data is basically a set of curved surfaces meshed together and as such I can't do things like snap to hole centres. Also there's some broken geometry around the holes themselves so it's hard to tell where the centres are. This is where i've got to so far, spending some spare time over the last few days:

 

 

It's a basic representation of the hub - the key things are the hole locations and other features with respect to each other.

 

 

 

With the original data ghosted over the top. Still needs ABS sensor pickup and also track rod end arm!

 

 

 

And with the full original data overlaid. The fundamental shapes are the same. I just need to check hole diameters and distances between them to make sure the geometry is correct.

 

Once this model is finished, it will be much easier to offset the two major damper holes and play about with scrub radius location and all the other stuff.

 

Pics attached for the FishWire :salute:

[daves16v 1]

Nice work boosty.

[n3p 3]

Out of my depth, but I do have a set of assembled VR6 hubs/bearing housings which can be donated to the cause. They were kindly gifted to me by alex303 (I needed the brake bits) so send the beer to him! I don't mind covering postage, but they are heavy buggers! Did you need just 1?

 

Nick

[boost monkey 0]

Yes just one would be fine as I can "mirror" it in cad :D

 

Cheers banan0rator, that is most generous of you.

 

I'll pm you my address :D

[KipVR 1]

Top work Jon as always.

[boost monkey 0]

:oops: I actually feel quite bad about my lack of effort over the past week, considering I was harping on about how it was only a few days design process :?

[fendervg 33]

Really interesting to watch this progress. Are we going to send the CADs to China ?

[KipVR 1]

Well at least you are doing it! Rather than just talking about it like the rest of us do!

[boost monkey 0]

Really interesting to watch this progress. Are we going to send the CADs to China ?

 

I hope not! At least the prototypes can be done here. I don't think we have the quantity (1000+ units from my experience at work) to get China to touch this. Plus the delivery time would be weeks and weeks as they plod on over in a boat, and then if they're wrong there'd be weeks and weeks before they got back to them.

[fendervg 33]

Only joking! - but on a serious note it's really great that you guys who have the relevant experience are doing this - it would resolve one of the long standing issues with the C when it comes to suspension.

[boost monkey 0]

Hopefully by the time the new model is finished it won't be too long until I have a real hub in my possession, then I can check the hole diameters and positions point to point against the model to ensure it is realistic.

 

Could we divulge between us a list of other possible hub "options" (offset, 4-pot brackets, etc) as they shouldn't be too hard to implement. Normally the companies have the 2D schematics of their calipers just up on the website, so it's easy to get basic dims of the calipers and rough location of where they would sit. For example, here's a caliper and pad from a wilwood 6-pot I mocked up before:

 

 

 

Mocking up a bracket of where the caliper should sit is then just a function of distances and locations between caliper and hub - you can suspend the two in mid air and then pretty much just fill the space inbetween with useful joiny bits :D Ah, the beauty of CAD.

 

For the offset, I'm not sure - is this just pushing the wheel out further, so perhaps making the spindle wider or having a thicker flange? I guess we gotta be careful not to increase the weight too much else they might eat bearings. Just initial thoughts. I don't really understand the whole ET thing, so I'll leave that to someone else to cover/explain!

[quicky1980 0]

Sounds like a great idea to add in some "extras", but I would say let's keep it simple as fitting after market brakes would still be possible with spacers, offset can be played around with spacers (plus this would effect the scrub radius anyway)

 

I would say, make it a close to OE as possible, from a biased opinion I dont want to have to change brakes, wheels etc just for this upgrade, that is unless these can be fabbed up easily to custom spec once weve got the basics sorted out. just my 2p's worth

[boost monkey 0]

Fair points Sam. Let's get a good base finished first then we can play with it. I knocked up the rest of it yesterday:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Granted, it does look a bit funny, it's hard to replicate cast features in CAD as the geometry isn't "clean". Surfaces are bumpy and features tend to merge into each other with webs etc. Once I receive the hub from banan0r, I'll give it a once over with the verniers and just check it all works out. This hub is just taking the important parts of the original hub model and converting into solid so that holes / distances can be measured more easily. I'm sure it will look much better than this once we have finished.

 

With regards to dropping down the shocker mount along the same axis, that will be easy to play with now we have new geometry that can be manipulated. I had a few thoughts though (shock!):

 

Dropping the shock mount down will mean dropping the LBJ and track rod points down also so that the wishbones and rack are still running at decent angles. No modification can be done (that I can see) to drop the driveshaft down as this obviously runs through the centre of the hub. However, these obviously have joints which allow running at different angles, so this is a minor problem. Also, you don't often hear about people destroying shafts just because they've lowered their car! So I'm happy to say that this can at least be mocked up. I still don't know the kingpin angle of the Corrado - with this info I can just put in some construction lines at XXX degrees to vertical and this can be the KPI line. Then mod the shock mount down this line (imitating lowered suspension / less wheel to arch clearance) and see what we think. I'm sure I could mock up some very rudimentary other suspension parts so that we can measure how the scrub changes and maybe even do some paper calcs :-o

 

---------- Post added at 08:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 AM ----------

 

I think i've missed off the upper stone guard mount hole - by the upper caliper carrier mount? I'll add it in later.

 

Also geometry looks quite angular and out of proportion but it's just an indication really. Once I confirm it's all correct i'll tidy it up and make it all pretty :awesome:

 

Extra Edit, Director's Cut: Pics attached for Kev.

Edited November 24, 2011 by boost monkey

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Those drawings are tingling my gentlemans area.....

[Supercharged 2]

Those drawings are tingling my gentlemans area.....

 

Mine too, although it could be the Extra Strong Mint Sauce shower gel I used this morning...