2 Litre KR Conversion...It's now Megasquirted!!

[davidwort 0]

Good question :), I was actually planning to use a 9A block, and even went to the extent of stripping it and cleaning it.

Unfortunately though, I couldn't seem to get hold of any oversized pistons for it, VW don't list any on ETKA and despite Kolben and the like listing them in their catalogues they were seemingly unobtainable.

 

David, if you get chance to take some piccies, I'd be very interested to see if TSR have indeed plugged up the oil sprays and also how they've managed to fit the larger 2.0 oil pump driving gear.

 

Forgot to check last night, but I will investigate, one thing I do remember from the 6A/9A is that the KR intermediate shaft and oil pump drive gear is different, but that TSR definitely use a higher capacity oil pump than the KR one.

There's various bits of machining gone on in that old KR block, I'll try to get some clear pictures.

I also have a balanced TSR 2L crank if anyone wants it!

I used the balanced con-rods in the 6A though as a result of my dad partially modifying the 6a to use in an 8V audi, which never happened (luckily for me).

 

One other thing, why were you intent on oversize pistons and how is that different from the KR to 9a block? They use the same bits if modded to 2L???

If you go close to 2.1 in the 16v you limit it's rev range.

 

David.

[roo 0]

David, when I meant oversized pistons I meant in the sense that, if I was to have the 9A block re-bored i'd need to use first oversize 9A pistons, which I couldn't seem to get. ETKA lists 1st and 2nd oversize pistons for the KR, but none for the 9A. So the easiest way was to just use standard 9A pistons and overbore the KR.

 

The oil pump is a funny one.

The 2.0 oil pump must run slower than the 1.8 pump as the driving gear on the intermediate shaft is smaller than the driven gear on the oil pump, the 1.8 pump is the otherway round indicating it must run much faster.

 

The oil pumping gears in the 2.0 pump are also much larger than the 1.8 pump, so it should in theory have a higher capacity.

I just wonder if both pumps actually flow the same but in different ways, i.e high capacity/low speed for the 2.0 vs low capacity/high speed for the 1.8? I can't see as the 2.0 has vastly different oil requirements than the 1.8?.

 

I wonder what would happen running the 2.0 pump on the 1.8 gearing :?

[davidwort 0]

David, when I meant oversized pistons I meant in the sense that, if I was to have the 9A block re-bored i'd need to use first oversize 9A pistons, which I couldn't seem to get. ETKA lists 1st and 2nd oversize pistons for the KR, but none for the 9A. So the easiest way was to just use standard 9A pistons and overbore the KR.

 

The oil pump is a funny one.

The 2.0 oil pump must run slower than the 1.8 pump as the driving gear on the intermediate shaft is smaller than the driven gear on the oil pump, the 1.8 pump is the otherway round indicating it must run much faster.

 

The oil pumping gears in the 2.0 pump are also much larger than the 1.8 pump, so it should in theory have a higher capacity.

I just wonder if both pumps actually flow the same but in different ways, i.e high capacity/low speed for the 2.0 vs low capacity/high speed for the 1.8? I can't see as the 2.0 has vastly different oil requirements than the 1.8?.

 

I wonder what would happen running the 2.0 pump on the 1.8 gearing :?

 

It looked to me like the gears had to change for clearance in the 2.0 block, I also remember paying some extorsionate amount from VAG for a 2.0 gear for the top of the pump as my dad had lost the original one as he had intended a dizzy to be fitted there for an 8v head.

I think the 1.8 had a slot on the top and the 2.0 splines on the pump drive shaft. I'd imagine TSR used a diesel pump or someting to give slightly higher capacity in the bored 1.8.

Also, use a windage plate from a mk3 or diesel golf, this goes in place of the sump gasket and helps prevent the crank dragging in the sump oil and generally keeping the sump oil where it should be, around the pump pickup pipe.

 

David.

[roo 0]

On mine, the 1.8 and 2.0 gears and pumps are both splined, but the 2.0 gear won't fit through the hole in the KR block, it will fit through from the inside though but i'm not sure if there's enough diametrical clearance to accomodate it. I should have sorted this out before really, but nevermind.

 

Windage tray sounds like a good idea too. How much would you want for that TSR crank btw?, I may be interested in it for my next build.

[roo 0]

Righty, thought i'd better update this thread seeing as how after a year of being off the road it's all working now :D

 

The last problem I had was to fit the 2 litre oil pump gear, which is a larger diameter to the 1.8 gear. In retrospect, I should have thought of this when the block was re-bored as it simply requires enlarging the hole diameter at the front of the block.

Anyhow, with a bit of patience and some grinding with my dremel the gear fitted nicely and oil did gush forth!.

 

 

 

Ta,

Andy

[Blue_Joe 0]

So have you had a custom remap then as it's now a 2ltr instead of a 1.8 or have you used a different chip??

[roo 0]

It's just running on plain 'ol K-Jet, with exactly the same fueling, timing etc as when it was a 1.8. It could do with a proper tune-up on a rolling road, but runs fine at the moment. I spoke to Vince about it and he suggested that I run it in for a 1500 miles before having it properly tuned.

[Blue_Joe 0]

Yeah exactly what I'm doing with mine. Once the head is bakc on then it'll be 1500 mile run in- then off to Chip Wizards in Manchester for the map!

[roo 0]

I was quite surprised at how well it actually runs on the 1.8 settings. From what Vince was saying it's mainly at the top end that the current fueling setup would be a problem.

Are you going for a 'nice 'n easy' break-in or a 'run it like you stole it' approach?

[roo 0]

It's been a while, so I thought i'd update this post with the current progress on my Corrado, namely my Megasquirt install.

 

After rebuilding my engine it ran pretty well for about 2500 miles (despite the whole K-Jet being a bit ropey) until it started to blow the dreaded blue smoke out the back, which was a nasty surprise to say the least.

After stripping the head down, I was also surprised to find 7 broken valve springs, 4 bent valves and only 12 stem seals left! The remnants of the broken springs and stem seals were lodged in the oil pickup strainer. Incidentally, the valve springs were all brand new items bought from Eurocarparts when I originally rebuilt the head, I can only assume it was a dodgy batch, not that Eurocarparts were remotely interested :roll:.

 

The bores on the other hand were in perfect condition, with distinct polishing marks on the thrust side. There's a lot of differing opinions regarding engine break-in and I opted for a 'hard' break in, which appeared to have worked very nicely. A later compression test with my freshly rebuilt cylinder head seems to confirm this as my compression was consistently around 225-230psi on every cylinder.

 

I'd been looking at Megasquirt for a while, and since K-Jet had been thrown in the bin it seemed a good time to implement it. I also wanted to get rid of the dizzy and use the Ford EDIS ignition system for a completely electronic system. This is fairly straight forward, but requires the fabrication of a 36-1 trigger wheel to be mounted on the crank, along with a variable reluctance sensor to read it. EDIS uses the trigger wheel and it's missing tooth to synchronise the ignition with the crankshaft position, the VR sensor works like a guitar pickup and 'counts' the teeth on the trigger wheel.

In addition to the trigger wheel the dizzy was replaced with a ford coil pack mounted on a blanking plate in it's place.

 

The K-Jet injectors have all been replaced with 'proper' ones and the fuel rail is a BBM item with their MK3 fuel pressure regulator adapter on one end. I probably would have fabricated a fuel rail, but this came up on ebay and was too good to pass up.

 

The wiring for Megasquirt is fairly straight forward, I chose to use the relay board to simplify things which means that all the engine loom terminates to it. Unfortunately the enclosure I chose is too small and i'm not keen on the connectors for long term reliability, so these will be changed in the next few weeks.

 

Anyway onto the good stuff, I had the car started last week and managed to set it up to achieve a good stable idle. It takes a bit of trial and error, but it really is amazing how differently the engine runs.

I'll keep this post updated as I progress with the tuning over the next few weeks. Stay tuned!.

[Toad 0]

I'm really interested by this, it's a route I plan on taking, although I expect I will use a standard 9A bottom end.

 

IYou talked about running it in 'hard' and I've heard various things said about this approach, but I'd like to know how you did it?

[roo 0]

I basically broke my engine in by using wide open throttle in primarily 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear from low revs, to about 4500-5000 RPM. I'd then come off the accelerator and allow the car to decelerate using engine braking. I kept this up for a few hundred miles, although I think the main break-in occurs within the first 20 miles or so.

 

Check out http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

There's loads of debate over this break-in method, but the fact i've got excellent compression would suggest that it works.

[Toad 0]

Funnily enough I read that webpage a couple of years ago. I like the theory behind it.... I think I'll try it, one day....

 

What sort of power and torque do you think you are getting? And how much benefit do you think the megasquirt makes?

[roo 0]

Yea, that page seems almost infamous on the web and when you actually think about the theory behind it, it makes perfect sense.

 

I'm not sure what power and torque i'll end up with tbh, the 16V ABF engines produced around 150hp straight out of the box running digifant, so i'd assume this should be easily achievable with mine. I really can't wait to get it dynoed!

 

To my mind the real benefit of megasquirt is that absolutely everything is tuneable to it's optimum, in a way that manufacturers are just unable to do for practical reasons. Plus it's a great challenge getting it all put together.

 

As to be expected, the difference from running K-Jet, which in all fairness had seen 140k on my valver is unbelievable. This is only based on the engine idling as I've not yet had it on the road, but i'm sure it'll be awesome.

[vr6 storm auto 0]

Hi

I am looking at using the same set up Have you any base maps for the timing and injection or do you Know where any are avalable

[roo 0]

Yea, I got my basemaps from the following links. They need a bit of tweaking for my setup, but are an excellent starting point, the ignition map is especially useful.

 

http://volksearch.com/patatron/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19

 

and

 

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53889

 

I'll post my maps when it's all tuned up properly.

[GazzaG60 0]

Guys. im not a lover of the base map/running in map theory/excuse.

 

as far as im concerned a base map or running in map is only a part done map and one big no-no is running in an engine on unfinished maps.

 

1500 miles of easy driving will do nothing other than polish the bores also. motortuneusa is how id go about it but maybe less redline.

 

use only running in oil too. dont use normal semi or fully otherwise the rings ull never seat.

 

run at least a proper tuned fuel map and a concervative timing map to win the day. not too concervative on timing or else itll get real hot in there.

[roo 0]

GazzaG60 - Sorry, I probably didn't make it clear with what I wrote.

 

My engine was rebuilt over a year ago and run in using the bog standard K-Jet with basic mineral oil. It was on the road for about 2500 miles until it became apparent that the cylinder head had problems. The car was then taken off the road to fix this and instead of refitting the K-Jet, that was almost dead anyway, I decided to fit megasquirt.

 

I agree, it wouldn't be a good idea to run it in on partially completed maps.

[mrbeige 0]

Any changes in the past year dude?

[boost monkey 0]

This thread gets two thumbs WAAAAY up from me, but I can't understand one thing:

 

Why is your inlet manifold the little skinny one and not the 52(?)mm one normally found on a KR? :(

[mrbeige 0]

This thread gets two thumbs WAAAAY up from me, but I can't understand one thing:

 

Why is your inlet manifold the little skinny one and not the 52(?)mm one normally found on a KR? :(

All Corrado KR engines came with the skinny manifold IIRC

[roo 0]

It's been a while, so I though I'd do a bit of an update...

 

I got my car running using Megasquirt and my mate and me had it running around the carpark at work, doing a little bit of tuning. It's fairly easy to do once you understand what all the settings do, but as we found out it's pretty much impossible to get a good state of tune without a visit to a rolling road.

 

After getting it up and running one of the first problems was the radiator fan, the original VW one had literally destroyed its bearings and was making an awful racket. I'd though about replacing it like for like, but decided to get a 12" SPAL fan instead as they're slimmer and more powerful. On a valver it bolts to the existing radiator cowling almost perfectly, I just had to add a couple of extra holes if I remember. If you want one of these fans, I'd recommend going to an air conditioning company, they're much cheaper than ANY 'performance' store.

 

Corrado92.pdfspalfan.jpg[/attachment:1h3nd6qw]

 

I've fitted 280mm disks and callipers. These are a big improvement over the 256s but still don't really have enough bite for my liking; I've got a 23mm master cylinder which should hopefully improve things a bit though. Me and my mate decided to groove the disks at work, we used a 4mm ballnosed cutter and went 2mm deep, I think they look pretty good and should keep the pads nicely de-glazed.

 

passat climatronic wiring diags.pdfbrakes.jpg[/attachment:1h3nd6qw]

 

Trying to get a good steady idle and warmup was a real nightmare, after using the standard VDO ISV with Megasquirt it seemed impossible to get the resolution that I wanted. I tried three different ISVs but to no avail. As it turned out, the TIP122 power transistor used in Megasquirt had blown as the VDO ISVs seem to draw too much current. I didn't really like the way that the VDO ISV looked either so set about looking for an alternative. I decided to use a Ford ISV as I'd read about them on the MS forum, they're much smaller, draw less current and much cheaper to replace as they're fitted to every ford since about 1992. Mine cost me a fiver from the scrappy!.

The problem is however that on fords they mount directly to the inlet manifold and as such are more difficult to mount in a VW!. What I did was make a part out of aluminium plate that mounts directly to the end of the inlet manifold. The air comes in through the small K&N air filter, through the ISV and straight into the manifold, not a hose in sight!.

I can't stress how good the ford ISV is for MS applications, it's possible to get a rock steady idle that varies by about 20 to 30 RPM and a good controllable warmup.

 

climatronic wiring-Golf from May 01.pdfisvmod.jpg[/attachment:1h3nd6qw]

 

Unfortunately despite two trips to Stealth the car is only mapped to about 5k. The first trip was cut short by a core plug in the head letting go, and having to pay an obscene amount of money to get home by train on top of having no option but to pay Stealth to fix my car. The second trip, which was more successful, highlighted a few bugs in my installation. Basically I'd paired-up the injectors wrongly, they should be 1&4, 2&3 and a setting in Megasquirt relating to if EDIS triggers on the leading edge or falling edge of the toothed wheel. The net result of these two problems was random jerkiness under acceleration and a some very severe dips in the power curve.

I sorted these problems out within a week and the car drives really well up to 5k, but I just don't have the money at the moment to get it fully re-mapped. In addition, the cylinder head needs to come off yet again. After rebuilding it due to a several valve springs shattering it turns out that the valve guides on the exhaust side must have experienced excessive wear as it's burning oil. I should have replaced the valve guides when I rebuilt the head but they seemed to be fine, apparently not.

The suspension and top mounts are also completely shot as it steers terribly, I'm not sure they're designed to last 156k!...I kid you not.

 

 

2.8l 24v Climatronic system.pdfengine.jpg[/attachment:1h3nd6qw]

 

enginebay2.jpg[/attachment:1h3nd6qw]

[boost monkey 0]

This thread gets two thumbs WAAAAY up from me, but I can't understand one thing:

 

Why is your inlet manifold the little skinny one and not the 52(?)mm one normally found on a KR? :(

All Corrado KR engines came with the skinny manifold IIRC

 

W T F :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

that is beyond lame.

 

Awesome thread though, keepit coming!

 

/end hijack.

[davidwort 0]

Really impressed with all of that, looks so neat and carefully thought out, would love to MS my valver, I'd imagine you can bring the fuel economy up too from the K-jet CIS as well as improving the torque mid range. Hope you get it mapped to the red-line sometime - 8)

 

I'm making very careful notes!

 

On the inlet manifold diameter business, all KR's changed to the 42mm inlet regardless of golf mk2/corrado/passat, I think a fair bit of thought went into the re-design and you'll find a lot of the big bumper mk2's have it. You might get a few hp more peak with a 50mm on a screaming high lift cam engine, but I've seen plenty of good output 2L 16v's using the 42 and I know it's not a restriction on mine (polished and ported to head with the KR cams).

[boost monkey 0]

Ah fair enough then, at least intake velocity will be higher on the 42 8)

 

On the MS, A lot of people I know use pretty much all ford parts on their engines, but none of them are running it on a VAG car, so i doubt their info would be much help :(