16v KR/9A power steering systems

[bcstudent 0]

Does anybody know the difference between the way the PAS pumps are mounted on the KR and 9A engines?

 

My car's had a lack of power assistance in the steering from cold since I've owned it (a little over two years). I finally decided to do something about it when a brand new ZF PAS pump came my way from eBay for £40. The problem is at some point in the past someone's fitted a Saginaw(?) pump from a 2.0 16v Corrado to the car and the two aren't easily interchangable, mainly because the shafts are 11mm different in length (with the correct pump being longer). So, if I fit the KR pump in the place of the current (wrong) pump the pulley is 11mm out of line from the rest.

 

I don't have access to ETOS (since my copy locked itself after a month) so I've been down to my local VW dealer and confirmed that the PAS pump pulley, the crankshaft pulley (026 105 255D) and the pump itself (028 145 157D) have the right part numbers for the car. I can only assume that the PAS pump brackets are different but I can't see any way that the new pump can move 11mm further in as the 9A pump is already very close to the engine.

 

The fact that I'm posting about this at amost 2:00am means it's costing me sleep! Help.

 

* EDIT *

 

Changed title for search purposes.

[davidwort 0]

Does anybody know the difference between the way the PAS pumps are mounted on the KR and 9A engines?

 

My car's had a lack of power assistance in the steering from cold since I've owned it (a little over two years). I finally decided to do something about it when a brand new ZF PAS pump came my way from eBay for £40. The problem is at some point in the past someone's fitted a Saginaw(?) pump from a 2.0 16v Corrado to the car and the two aren't easily interchangable, mainly because the shafts are 11mm different in length (with the correct pump being longer). So, if I fit the KR pump in the place of the current (wrong) pump the pulley is 11mm out of line from the rest.

 

I don't have access to ETOS (since my copy locked itself after a month) so I've been down to my local VW dealer and confirmed that the PAS pump pulley, the crankshaft pulley (026 105 255D) and the pump itself (028 145 157D) have the right part numbers for the car. I can only assume that the PAS pump brackets are different but I can't see any way that the new pump can move 11mm further in as the 9A pump is already very close to the engine.

 

The fact that I'm posting about this at amost 2:00am means it's costing me sleep! Help.

 

The pulleys are all different on the late KR and 9A engines,

interestingly when I took my old (and fairly early KR) pump into GSF a few years back, they only listed the 9A pump, but as it was exchange I had my old one with me. apart from a minor difference in the pump feed pipe position they were identical and yet my kr had the early pulley arrangement, simply swapped pulley to new pump and it all fitted fine, the feed pipe was not an issue either.

I reckon you just need a kr style pulley for the ps pump, unless both your crank pulley and ps pulley have been swapped at some point.

I've got a bunch of pics from my ps setup (kr) if you want them, from when my ps pump was playing up and leaking.- a few added below, this is an early KR setup with a 2.016v pump.

 

I also discovered that several cars, golf 3's, some passats and Seat's have the same pump as the 16v C's do.

 

edit: re-read your post, wierd, possibly you have a pump with a longer shaft and/or spacer, I know some other VW's have this from looking at various cars in the scrappy, same pump but slightly longer shaft.

BTW, pug 306's have the same pump too!

 

David.

[bcstudent 0]

Thanks for the reply.

 

I read somewhere that the KR and 9A setup are different, as one uses an idler pulley (or something); the 1.8 if I remember right. However, I'm sure the pulleys themselves are the same - one setup just has more of them. ETKA even lists the pump shaft spacing as 41mm for the 9A pump and 52mm for the KR pump, so that's spot on too. It's very strange.

 

I guess the point is if the crank-driven pulleys *are* the same between the KR and 9A engines then the pump mounting has to somehow be different by 11mm.

 

If anyone has access to ETKA/ETOS can they have a quick look at the PAS systems and list the parts that aren't common to both? Alternatively a screen grab would be sweet.

 

davidwort, thanks again :)

[davidwort 0]

Thanks for the reply.

 

I read somewhere that the KR and 9A setup are different, as one uses an idler pulley (or something); the 1.8 if I remember right. However, I'm sure the pulleys themselves are the same - one setup just has more of them. ETKA even lists the pump shaft spacing as 41mm for the 9A pump and 52mm for the KR pump, so that's spot on too. It's very strange.

 

I guess the point is if the crank-driven pulleys *are* the same between the KR and 9A engines then the pump mounting has to somehow be different by 11mm.

 

If anyone has access to ETKA/ETOS can they have a quick look at the PAS systems and list the parts that aren't common to both? Alternatively a screen grab would be sweet.

 

davidwort, thanks again :)

 

pump, KR ones have 52mm hub spacing, 9A 41mm - allegedly on ETKA

 

late KR's have same pump pulleys as 9A no. 051 145 255

early KR 027 145 255

 

crank pulley 9A can't see number, but all other bolts, main pulley etc same as late kr

late kr 051 105 255

early kr 026 105 255D

 

all 3 brackets are all the same. KR's and 9A's

 

water pump pulleys go to the same number on late KR's (without idler pulley) and all 9A's

 

David.

[bcstudent 0]

God I'm confused. The car is an early KR with the chassis number

 

I forgot to write down the part number of the pump pulley when I was last under the car. I may have to go and find that later.

 

As far as I can tell, for an early KR, we've established that the new pump I have is right (026 105 255D), the pump bracketry is the same and the problem is pulley-related. Am I right?

[davidwort 0]

God I'm confused. The car is an early KR with the chassis number

 

I forgot to write down the part number of the pump pulley when I was last under the car. I may have to go and find that later.

 

As far as I can tell, for an early KR, we've established that the new pump I have is right (026 105 255D), the pump bracketry is the same and the problem is pulley-related. Am I right?

 

You need to measure the distance from the pulley side face of the pump body to the mounting face for the pulley on the pump, that's where there seem to be two types, I've seen this difference on countless VW's and Seats of the era.

From your chassis no./description, you should have the same setup as me, and as in the pictures above, i.e. the ps belt also drives the waterpump, it's the later Kr's and 9A's that just drive the ps pump directly from the crank.

From what I remember both the ps pulley and crank pulley for the 9A 'stick out' further than the kr ones. I think this is down to a crank pulley that sticks out further and the shaft length on the pump.

 

I can measure any 'bits' if you like, but not till this evening/tomorrow.

 

David

[bcstudent 0]

I've got a Saginaw 41mm pump on the car at the moment and I'm trying to fit a 52mm pump. If anything I'd expect the KR pulleys, rather than the 9A, to stick out further as the shaft for the pump is 11mm longer.

[davidwort 0]

I've got a Saginaw 41mm pump on the car at the moment and I'm trying to fit a 52mm pump. If anything I'd expect the KR pulleys, rather than the 9A, to stick out further as the shaft for the pump is 11mm longer.

 

Going by memory I thought the ps pump on the 9A was driven by the outer crank pulley, but the measurements 41mm and 52mm suggest the 41mm is driven by the inner belt???

Really need to get a pic of the 9A setup to compare. :?

[bcstudent 0]

Well, on the car at the moment the 41mm pump is driven by the outer crank pulley if that helps. I'll take some pics when I can but it's not the easiest place to get good pics of!

[roo 0]

Here's a picture of my setup. I got a ZF pump off ebay too and converted my KR setup to 9A when I rebuilt my engine. The ZF pump definitely has a different shaft offset to the early KR type and so I had to buy a couple of new pulleys to make it work, they were pretty cheap too.

[bcstudent 0]

roo, that's exactly what I needed! I don't suppose you got the part numbers off those pulleys? Just to confirm, you bought a pump with the longer shaft spacing and had to change from the three-pulley system you had to the two-pulley system in your pic?

 

The water pump pulley looks like 027 131 031, but I can't make out the others.

[roo 0]

Yep, I replaced the naff three-pulley system with the 9A two-pulley system, as this was the only way to get the ZF pump with its different shaft offset to line up properly.

 

The only parts you need for this swap are: 051 145 255 for the power steering pulley and 027 121 031 for the waterpump pulley.

[bcstudent 0]

I'll have a dig around the breaker's yard tomorrow and see what I can find.

 

Thanks again.

[bcstudent 0]

Just to keep this thread up-to-date (and because I'm not sure when I might have access to ETOS again) I thought it'd be a good idea to add these for reference:

[bcstudent 0]

Yep, I replaced the naff three-pulley system with the 9A two-pulley system, as this was the only way to get the ZF pump with its different shaft offset to line up properly.

 

The only parts you need for this swap are: 051 145 255 for the power steering pulley and 027 121 031 for the waterpump pulley.

 

Those two part numbers are, indeed, for the late KR and 9A setup. Don't you need the late crankshaft PAS pulley (051 105 255) too?

 

I think I'm just going to go to the breaker's and pick up a stack of pulleys!

[davidwort 0]

Here's a picture of my setup. I got a ZF pump off ebay too and converted my KR setup to 9A when I rebuilt my engine. The ZF pump definitely has a different shaft offset to the early KR type and so I had to buy a couple of new pulleys to make it work, they were pretty cheap too.

 

There's loads more pics at http://www.roolighting.com/16V/

 

Blimey :shock:

 

have you shot blasted and repainted the entire car part by part, looks excellent 8)

 

David.

[roo 0]

Thanks David! I pretty much refurbished/replaced everything as it was in a pretty rough state. It passed it's MOT last week too and i'm really happy with it, especially the increased torque from making it 2 litres.

 

bcstudent, I just used my standard KR crank pulley setup. I have one off a 9A block and it looks identical, certainly the pulley to drive the power steering pump is the same diameter as the KR one.

[bcstudent 0]

Bugger. I've just ordered the crank pulley and the water pump pulley from VW as the breakers only had the late PAS pump pulley. They were only £40 for the pair but the crank pulley is out of stock and will delay the delivery of the pair.

 

Do the alternator and PAS pump belts both run around the waterpump on the three-pulley system?! It certainly looks like they do!

[davidwort 0]

Bugger. I've just ordered the crank pulley and the water pump pulley from VW as the breakers only had the late PAS pump pulley. They were only £40 for the pair but the crank pulley is out of stock and will delay the delivery of the pair.

 

Do the alternator and PAS pump belts both run around the waterpump on the three-pulley system?! It certainly looks like they do!

 

The outer belt (ps one) drives the pump, the alternator belt is simply deflected by the idler pulley around the water pump, early kr.

 

On the later style and all 9A's it's just a straight drive from outer crank pulley to ps pump, the other belt drives the alternator and water pump.

 

I think that's what you asked?

 

I'm still confused that GSF sold me a pump for a 2L 16v and it fitted my early kr just fine :?

 

So I wouldn't be able to fit the 9A arrangement of pulleys without a new pump (of the later type)?

 

David.

[bcstudent 0]

The outer belt (ps one) drives the pump, the alternator belt is simply deflected by the idler pulley around the water pump, early kr.

 

Ahhh, so that inner water pump pulley is connected to the outer pulley but just spins freely. I get ya'.

I'm still confused that GSF sold me a pump for a 2L 16v and it fitted my early kr just fine Confused

 

So I wouldn't be able to fit the 9A arrangement of pulleys without a new pump (of the later type)?

 

I'm really not sure. I only know that my early KR engine has the three-pulley system with a 41mm PAS pump shaft (Saginav). I've bought a 52mm (ZF) pump and have to change some of the pulleys to fit it.

 

I'll update the thread when I've got it all lined up just to confirm what I had and what I changed to.