vr6 cams

[C488ADO 0]

lmfao

 

cheers guys

 

the 268's are they all about mid to top end power??

 

and the 263's kinda just smooth from start to finish??

 

would that be a good ish explanation to a newbie such as myself??

[GVK 0]

imo if you were blindfolded you wouldn't tell the difference :salute:

 

268s in my mk2 pull really hard from 5-7000rpm but it's not as though it's flat below that :?

 

From my last 4yrs of VR6 ownership I see the difference as :

 

Stock cams - great mid-range, but run out of puff at 5000rpm

268s - also great mid range but keep pulling 5000rpm+

I haven't used Schimmel 263s - they're just the same as the Autotech 262s aren't they?

 

Bear in mind mine is/was stripped mk2 with 3.68 FD

[Philmo 0]

Well - I drove VAG-hag's low mileage Storm before and after 263 fitment [with re-map].

It felt smooth beforehand and now it is exceptionally smooth and behaves/delivers in every way better and no hint of downside.

2.8l 24v Climatronic system.pdfG60 NO bhp.jpg[/attachment:2petld3d]

G60 NO Torque.jpg[/attachment:2petld3d]

[Abdul 0]

imo if you were blindfolded you wouldn't tell the difference :salute:

 

268s in my mk2 pull really hard from 5-7000rpm but it's not as though it's flat below that :?

 

From my last 4yrs of VR6 ownership I see the difference as :

 

Stock cams - great mid-range, but run out of puff at 5000rpm

268s - also great mid range but keep pulling 5000rpm+

I haven't used Schimmel 263s - they're just the same as the Autotech 262s aren't they?

 

Bear in mind mine is/was stripped mk2 with 3.68 FD

 

How much did your 268s cost mate?

 

Dont rados use the same FD or is it the 3.3?

[Philmo 0]

Does anyone have any curves for the 268's, before and after fitment?

[GVK 0]

@ Abdul -£200 about 4yrs ago off E38, bloke fitted them for a week and then sold them.

 

@Philmo - - none with stock cams, I didn't dyno it with the stock cams.

 

0BD II 2.8

DRC 268s

Carbonio CAI

eBay 6 branch

mk4 HG

Unorthodox racing alloy flywheel

C2 UK NA software

 

216.9bhp @ 6189rpm (118mph in 4th gear)

192.2 lb/ft @ 5297rpm

 

 

You tube vid of power run -

 

Power graph

 

Torque graph

 

Summary details

[VAG-hag 0]

will everyone please stop talking about my curves.... im a sensetive guy!! :camp:

 

---------- Post added at 12:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 PM ----------

 

I almost got over 200 torque (199.9) but I started 3.5 behind VAG HAG so both of us got almost exactly the same torque increase.

 

[87 Jetta 16v 0]

I had forgotten about this thread, made me chuckle reading through it again.

 

One popular myth to dispel, it is not cylinder head flow that restricts the 12v VR going past 250 bhp NA, it is the size of the wallet of the engine project commissioner!!

 

I now drive a standard Corrado VR (its the only one that works!!) and jolly nice it is too. One day it might even make it onto a dyno after I change the chains and guides.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

How many 250+hp NA 12Vs are there out there? I'm sure Corozin went 3.0 high compression, cams, big valve head etc and wasn't much past 250, if at all? Highest NA 12V I ever saw was a 3.1 with an ABT crank, Schrick BVH, 268s, VGI, big bore throttle etc and that made ~ 240hp.

 

It does all come down to cost eventually though, which is why you go for the R32 engine if you want high hp V6 ;)

Edited January 20, 2012 by Kevin Bacon

[87 Jetta 16v 0]

How many 250+hp NA 12Vs are there out there? I'm sure Corozin went 3.0 high compression, cams, big valve head etc and wasn't much past 250, if at all? Highest NA 12V I ever saw was a 3.1 with an ABT crank, Schrick BVH, 268s, VGI, big bore throttle etc and that made ~ 240hp.

 

It does all come down to cost eventually though, which is why you go for the R32 engine if you want high hp V6 ;)

 

I never got mine running in the end, but the tab was well over £6k and I hadn't got as far as an exhaust, radiator, wiring loom, ecu, mapping, etc etc.

 

The head on flowtest made 118 cfm at 10'' depression on the inlet side IIRC. As a comparison, a full race spec 2L twin cam fiat makes around 195 bhp with the same flow on the same flowbench, both tests operated by the same person. Extrapolated out that makes over 290 bhp, so flow is not the issue.

 

As for how many 250+ bhp 12v's, I have never seen a single one. The issue is cost and the lack of any suitable race series to use one in. Because of this, off the shelf performance parts are difficult to come by, so you are looking at bespoke parts and that costs £££'s. £10k is a lot to plough into a toy engine, even if it is unique.

 

R32 is indeed the way forward if you are after "easy" power. Smooth, reliable, (reasonably) economical. I am officially old!!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I didn't know you'd gone for a 12V project of that calibre!

 

Was that a standard head making 118cfm? That's not as poor as I expected actually, not when you consider the R32's flow @ 10" is 150cfm, according to CNC heads. They can only push it up to 162ish as VW did a good job on the inlet side, but the real gains can be found on the exhaust ports, which if you're going to turbo a 32, is quite a nice thing to do.

 

Indeed, £10K to get 290hp or half that to get 400hp....via a snail, of course :D

 

I reckon that venerable 32 has got 100hp/litre capability. I will prove it, some day, time and funds allowing! As for old, I lined my boot with egg box foam the other weekend to try and drown out some exhaust drone. Now that is old!

[VAG-hag 0]

I enjoyed reading it again too.... been a while eh? Im still happy with mine but im sure that id eiter go VRT or R32 rather than chase anything more than I have from NA.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

It's embarrassing reading old argumentative posts, but there's some good info in there too :D

 

It's difficult to prove a particular cam is capable of X hp by itself because so many other factors influence the final outcome, so probably not a debate that would ever provide any concrete answers unfortunately. I suppose the all important "Up to" is missing from engine modification hp claims. Garrett et al do it with their turbos as well. "GT35R - 600hp", well, yeah, if the engine it's bolted to can consume and burn 600hp worth of air flow, then sure. But sticking a GT35R onto a Smart Car engine won't give you 600hp, obviously :D

 

Anyway, yeah, based on 8 years of f'king around with my Corrado, I can tell you it's best to go by your instincts: bigger definitely is better, so turbo or R32 it, or both :D

[87 Jetta 16v 0]

I didn't know you'd gone for a 12V project of that calibre!

 

Was that a standard head making 118cfm? That's not as poor as I expected actually, not when you consider the R32's flow @ 10" is 150cfm, according to CNC heads. They can only push it up to 162ish as VW did a good job on the inlet side, but the real gains can be found on the exhaust ports, which if you're going to turbo a 32, is quite a nice thing to do.

 

Indeed, £10K to get 290hp or half that to get 400hp....via a snail, of course :D

 

I reckon that venerable 32 has got 100hp/litre capability. I will prove it, some day, time and funds allowing! As for old, I lined my boot with egg box foam the other weekend to try and drown out some exhaust drone. Now that is old!

 

The standard head was somewhere in the mid 90 cfm from memory on inlet side. This was a full spec, 42mm inlet 36mm exhaust valve sizes with waisted stems. Specially developed and flowbench tested valve angles. Ti caps, ferrea springs, solid lifters, custom designed and ground cams to the flow characteristics of the head circa 300 degree duration and 12 mm lift. Vernier pulleys. BMS throttle bodies (which were cr@p). The bottom end was forged 84.5mm 12:1 cr pistons, rods, knife edged and balanced crank, all set up and balanced to under 1 gram. The whole lot was run through a full engine simulation package after the cams were designed to get some exhaust primary and secondary lengths calculated. The simulation (obviously not done by me!) returned around 315 - 325 bhp depending on the cam timing.

 

Regarding CNC, I would take the numbers with a pinch of salt, hence the "same flowbench by same operator" comment. I quote the numbers for the big valve XE's as having 170 cfm on inlet. Now my head developer does a lot of these for tarmac rally, and he gets around 148 cfm on a 35mm inlet valve, obviously with great area under the lift curve. These engines put out 290 bhp with a 4k rpm wide torque curve of 190 + lb/ft from a 2L bottom end. Perhaps the CNC heads have the ports bored out to huge dimensions, but this will blow an enormous hole in your torque curve. I also heard stories of massive bore adaptors being used which will also give results that would not apply in a real life situation. Who knows!!

 

I know the feeling with the R32, and to be honest, the old EA827 engine code valvers have 100 bhp / L capability in the standard heads too (in ABF guise at least) so I would be VERY surprised if the R32 head design had taken a step backwards. I did have a "moment" last year and bought some Pauter rods and JE 84.5mm pistons for the R. Tbh, I don't think I will ever get round to using them as I seem to have a very large number of "projects" on at the moment!!

 

Proving stuff out is very difficult and as you say, there are so many interlinked variables that have a large influence on the end result. In many ways I am gutted to have not completed the TB'd 12v, but the R came up and I had an impulse purchase moment. With hindsight, perhaps continuing with the original project would have been a better idea. Again, who knows.

 

VAG-hag, mystic blue storm is the way forward :) Have you made any mods to yours?

[VAG-hag 0]

thats what I thought '87 Jetta..... had to have one! Ive done a few bits. H&R Clubsport coilies, eibach ARBs, OZ super Ts, Brembo 4 pots with 323s, 263 cams, Carbonio induction etc etc.... got a pretty special exhaust ready to go on soon. Its currently in for paint so costing me a furtune in f***ing brittle plastic bits :silly:

[Bullfinch 0]

Doing some research on cams as when I get back to the UK I'd like some more low down grunt for the Storm. DG now fit Autotech 262 cams and then perform a re-map (sold out of their own long ago). Anyone got these fitted? If so do you recommend them?

[Philmo 0]

Schimmel 263's - have a look at the curves on VAG-hag's thread!