16v Forced induction head

[rmn 0]

Does anybody have a 16v with turbo or supercharger, i am just wondering what sort of head work they have done?

Also what are the pro's and cons of doing bigger valves?

Someone was saying that a mk3 git 16v head would be a good option!

any ideas?

Thanks

[Kevin Bacon 5]

No need. Stock KR head flows plenty. Just rebuild it to back to OE spec, new guides & seals, valve lapping, new lifters etc. This is important:- Use a steel headgasket from a late 2.0 16V engine, not a plain one or it'll blow after about 30K's use.

 

Block will need to be honed if within tolerance plus new rings or fully rebuilt if the bores have ovalised.

 

Depending on what level you want to take the engine out to, you will need to either offset bush the conrods to lower the CR or you can use forged pistons. Option 1 is way cheaper and good for about 260bhp. Forged pistons will handle significantly more boost, so it's a performance v cost v reliability issue for you to decide for yourself.

 

16V bearings, rods and crank can handle around the 260 mark and remain reliable but if you're looking at 300+ bhp, then you're going to need a steel crank and tougher conrods.

 

My 16V T engine just used a low pressure Garrett T25 running at 0.8bar max (10.5psi) and was based around an original Turbo Technics kit. This setup was then refined with an additional fuel rail with 4 VR6 injectors, controlled by K star and a MAP sensor. K * can then run 4 different fuel & ignition maps at different boost levels. It does the job but it doesn't change maps quickly enough, although I hear Milford have improved the circuitry for a faster response time.

 

A standalone system from DTA would give better results...but it costs sh1t loads.

 

With K star mapping, my engine produced 215bhp and 210lb/ft torque @ 10.5psi.

 

The new owner of the car has since added a Hybrid T28 turbo and a full width intercooler and it now develops 260bhp and 250lb/ft.

 

It's a cracking engine! I much prefer it's characteristics & sound to the 20V unit. It's very smooth and lag is minimal. Comes on strong at 3,200rpm and doesn't stop till the limiter. You get a little boost loss at the top end due to the engine absorbing it (16V flows phenomenal amounts of air) but you don't really notice it.

 

Midrange punch is mind blowing.

 

K

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Oh and I would use some Raceware head and big end bearing cap fasteners too :lol:

 

K

[rmn 0]

Thanks Kev, i might use a G60 charger, not 100% yet.

Gonna use a G60 block, bigger cooling channels, forged pistons too.

I know the turbo makes more power, but the G makes a serious sound!

 

Are the G60 Rods the same as the 16v ones?

As for managment, i will be going with the G60 setup, for the moment.............then maybe dta, if the bank manager allows it lol

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Thanks Kev, i might use a G60 charger, not 100% yet.

Gonna use a G60 block, bigger cooling channels, forged pistons too.

I know the turbo makes more power, but the G makes a serious sound!

 

Are the G60 Rods the same as the 16v ones?

As for managment, i will be going with the G60 setup, for the moment.............then maybe dta, if the bank manager allows it lol

 

No probs.

 

The Glader surely does make a distinctive noise alright :lol:

 

Those figures above were based on the 1800 KR engine by the way. The standard G60 Limited kicked out 210bhp don't forget, although it did run a modded Glader. So you're onto a good start even with standard kit!

 

Erm, I dunno about the G60 rods, someone like Stevemac or Henny will probably know.

 

Kev

[Henny 0]

pass... Sorry... :roll: Ask John (16Vg60) seeing as he's got a 16V G60, he's probably the best person to talk to! 8)

[rmn 0]

yeah, i will be running a "reasonable" comp ratio! :lol:

thats why i wondered about the rods.

 

The new owner of your car is still running the standard head?

its just polished and ported

[Kevin Bacon 5]

yeah, i will be running a "reasonable" comp ratio! :lol:

thats why i wondered about the rods.

 

Do you need to worry about CR if you're going to use a G60 block? As Henny said above, 16VG60 (aka John) is the man for this!

 

The new owner of your car is still running the standard head?

its just polished and ported

 

He certainly is. No polishing or porting. Honestly, the 16V head flows really really well, some 33% volumetric effeciency more than the 8V head. By all means take the head to stage 2, but stage 3 (marginally bigger valves) will cost you big time.

 

Something else worth considering is a cross flow 8V head or a Eurospec 8V head, which is a complete new casting with some serious valves in it.

 

Just some thoughts...

 

K

[rmn 0]

Cheers lads, i already spoke to john,

and i had made some decisions based on what he said, but wanted to be 100%!

 

Now the entire thing gets expencive! :(

but should have good rewards!!!! :D

[W3RKD 0]

agreed kev the 8v x-flow head is deftinatly very effiecent and have some lovely valves in it...

 

rmn i will let you know what its like running on a 1.9 g60 very soon :lol:

[G60JAY 0]

I just run a standard kr head with standard cams on my 16v g60 .The head does flow very well as mentioned above.The g60 rods have a bigger pin diameter then 16v ones but pistons can be made to either spec.

Jason

[rmn 0]

Thanks guys,

Darren, what sort of diameter are the valves in the crossflow head?

 

Jason, what sort of flywheel bhp are you getting? is it a 1.8 or bigger?

thanks :)

[aposegil 0]

guys just out of interest what boost is recomened for what compresion i.e

 

10.5:1 = max 1 bar boost

9:5:1 = max 1.5 bar boost etc

 

is there any books etc to read up

 

only ask as i might know someone superchargering a 16v :roll: and bearing in mind this engine already runs a DTA system so fueling and timing will not be a issue. Also there will be a intercooler and hopefully the new Cyro2 cooling system for fuel air and intercooler.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

guys just out of interest what boost is recomened for what compresion i.e

 

10.5:1 = max 1 bar boost

9:5:1 = max 1.5 bar boost etc

 

is there any books etc to read up

 

only ask as i might know someone superchargering a 16v :roll: and bearing in mind this engine already runs a DTA system so fueling and timing will not be a issue. Also there will be a intercooler and hopefully the new Cyro2 cooling system for fuel air and intercooler.

 

You need to look at 8.5:1 for anything over 10psi (0.8 bar) really. The 16V doesn't have knock control (it may be able to have that function with the DTA tho) so you have to be careful!

 

Kev

[aposegil 0]

cool that is what i though as the plan is 0.5-0.8bar so that should be ok

 

Also what pulleys does the 16v g60 use???

 

Ive heard u cant use the g60 crack pulley

 

Also ive been offered a mkIII gti pulley system with alternator etc

 

So what is the best setup pulley wise to go with

 

Off course this is all info for my mate :wink: :lol: :-P

[rmn 0]

Alex, its like the info is for my mate too 8)

 

I have heard that a mix of G60 pulleys and mk3 ones are the best combo, read it on vortex

[W3RKD 0]

Darren, what sort of diameter are the valves in the crossflow head?

 

39.5mm inlet / 33mm exhaust.

 

where are you guys planning on running your alternators ? as i hope you not planning to run the at the back ala the limited.. those bets runs are so messy and can let the belt flap too... just my opinion of course... :lol:

[rmn 0]

i was thinking of the back, but i do take what your saying to heart!

The Only prob with the front mount is the location of it for access.

 

 

Will a rallye fmic fit the corrado easily?

[W3RKD 0]

i was thinking of the back, but i do take what your saying to heart!

The Only prob with the front mount is the location of it for access.

 

 

Will a rallye fmic fit the corrado easily?

 

the alt will fit under the charger on the air con mounts.. spk also to jayg60 for any 16vg60 questions as he has this conv running 4wd too

 

he used a std g60 alt turned 1 turn and mounted off std air con mounts...

 

this is definatly where mine will be going too... :lol: :lol: with the addition of fixed tooth belt drive. :lol:

[G60JAY 0]

Rmn

When i had it up at jabba it was developing around 260hp at the flywheel.

It`s a 2L tho.

jason

[rmn 0]

Thanks Jason, its based on the 2L long block is it?

[G60JAY 0]

Thanks Jason, its based on the 2L long block is it?

It`s a long block with 83mm je pistons.

[rmn 0]

Jason, what sort of comp ratio are you running?

 

I am thinking of a short block with 83mm forged pistons, so only 1.9!

[G60JAY 0]

The je pistons i have are 8.5 to 1 but i think je have since increased this to 9 to 1 which should be fine.

Other pistons to consider are audi s2 ones which are 81.5mm at 8 to 1 i think.

jason

[beavis 0]

I'm not too conversant with the use of the 16v head used in conjunction with a G60 blower. As regards the bottom end we have been doing our homework over the last few months on what components are compatible with what, best compromise of cash to BHP and in what area to spend the majority of the money.

 

It is possible to gain an extra few cc by combining a mixed array of components, i.e. long throw cranks etc etc, and I’ve even heard rumour of people going to the lengths of using normally aspirated pistons of French origin to get the maths to work!! (Well for ten minutes) and weird 8.4563 :1 compression ratios as tuners claim that it is 'The optimum compression ratio' when in fact it is just what the compression has worked out too when they have used what pistons are easierly available to them off the shelf.

 

Ultimately if you look at what is originally there lurking in your engine bay it is all pretty good. A solid block with decent water jacket, strong rods and it all fits with no crazy complicated brackets. Admittedly the KR block is a better foundation as a base block as it has better bottom end breathing, but besides that the PG is pretty solid.

 

People get clouded in their thinking by the larger the number in the 'cc' factor, the larger the BHP/torque figure is. True to an extent but there are many other factors that contribute to producing a good all round packages.

 

We are sticking with the standard PG crank, stress relived G60 rods but are opting for to use forged pistons made for us to our own specification. The pistons are the G60 lumps weak spot. The bowl in the piston creates some nice heat spots, hence why 9 times out of 10 they melts down on the outer edges fusing the piston and rings to the bore wall. We are boring out to 83mm, a sensible degree to bore without taking too much meat out of the block.

 

The forged units will also allow us to run 9:1 compression quite safely, plenty of meat on the piston crowns and between the ring lands to cope with the extra brunt of upped compression.

 

The raised compression is the key to where we are going to get the power out of the engines. The money we have saved on not chasing extra 'cc' on buying cranks, new blocks etc will be spent on effectively running the 9:1 to it full potential.

 

Running 9:1 will give a higher 'effective compression ratio', so in essence the engine will need less boost to give the same effective compression of that of the 8;1 engines. The engine is less reliant on boost to give power and torque and has more mechanical power, in reality a 68/70mm pulley should be more than sufficient to give more than enough boost to put a smile on ya face and working the charger less to boot.

 

The use of the x-flow head and effective intercooling will keep boost temperatures down reducing the likelihood of 'pink'.

 

We reassembled the 1st 1341cc G40 with 9:1 compression last week and were more than happy with the results. The end product was an engine that is very responsive and lively off boost. Silly amounts of low down torque, better fuel economy cruising, smooth linier power with no steps in the power delivery. The engine is all torque which puts smiles on ya face. At the moment the car is on a Stock 76mm pulley and is not fully mapped yet, the only mods to it are a flowed charger, exhaust and induction kit. The car destroys our 190bhp mini cooper 'S' and is like for like of another G40 that has 65mm toothed belts running 17psi boost, flowed head etc but only running 1272cc 8;1.

 

I'm confident now the G60 big brother will respond in the same way with similar way.

High compression, low boost temps, efficent head, good breathing and effective fueling. Simple formula.

 

Anyway.. i'll shut up now and carry on drinking mi G&T