Opinions please, VR6T or 2.0TFSI DSG??

[Barry_gti 0]

Right everyone, I am building a Corrado race car. Main objectives are lap times but reliable too. I have been running over options in my head and I am stumped so please give opinions/add to mine:

 

VR6T:

1. I already have a VR6 engine and box.

2. Turbo options for 400-500bhp easily and engine won't be a worry for me.

3. Gearbox will be a worry for me, LSD fitted and new race clutch will be needed. But still a worry.

4. Capacity rules, puts me in big classes.

 

2.0T DSG:

1. Not as easy to fit.

2. Big cost for parts(same as turbo kit for VR6) with Stage 1-2 265bhp.

3. 365bhp would be max on K04, wouldn't want to go any more due to money. But that's another 2k

4. Gearbox, still needs LSD but rapid shifts(lap times) and strong.

5. Engine positioning and weight, although DSG weighs more than VR6 box.

6. Good classing for engine capacity.

 

So what do you think? I know DSG will be more unique but I simply want to go as fast as possible for my money.

[dukest 0]

are you doing the work yourself? there is a trade off between home-constructing a VR6T set up from scratch compared with a pre-designed turbo spec lifted out of an existing VAG car. if you're not doing it yourself the labour involved in the former may well balance out the higher cost of the latter.

tbh the fact that you already have a vr6 engine and box wouldnt be a factor for me as in the scheme of things they are worth less than 10% of the cost of the project and, unless they've been rebuilt to a high spec, are commodity items.

i would worry about the maintenance of a complex DSG gearbox arrangement which is going to be worked hard in a race car. i'm sure it would be a great set up but if money is an ongoing concern then it seems like a risk to me. can you just get a normal manual gearbox set up to go with the engine? that would save on the budget i would assume and would be easier to DIY maintain. also saves the weight you mention along with the smaller engine being better positioned for weight distribution as you say.

more pros than cons for the 2.0T for me but it depends on the ultimate power you want. frankly 350bhp in a stripped out corrado is going to make for a pretty good set up unless you really want to be the fastest thing there.

/non-experts opinion

[Kevin Bacon 5]

2.0T DSG would be an interesting car! VR6 Turbos are old news now, but are reliable and powerful if built properly.

 

And that's the rub isn't it? Do you spend 1000s on making a VRT reliable, or do you spend 1000s on installing a TFSI DSG setup?

 

Personally, I would do TFSI manual conversion with 02M 6 speed box. 365hp from a K04 is pure fantasy though. 350 tops on race fuel and loads of ignition advance perhaps. You need something in the order of a Garrett 2871R to realise up to 400hp on pump fuel. GT3071 will see you to 450hp, assuming the internals and intercooling are up to the job of course, and so on.....

 

So there is no simple answer for this. Either option is going to cost you a fair stack of wedge, but one thing is for certain: 400hp of VRT is going to be considerably cheaper than 400hp of TFSI and at those kind of numbers, the VRT is by far the stronger engine too.

[Rob_B 0]

tfsi into a corrado is a chore. been looking into it and its not cheap. lots of fabrication as there aren't any bits on the shelf yet. VRT on standalone management with 450bhp will be alot easier than a 350bhp 2.0 tfsi with a manual gearbox, let alone dsg!

[boost monkey 0]

Is there data out yet to prove how strong the DSG boxes are? more moving parts means more to go wrong, and could be a weakness for a high-power racing application...I don't care if it can swap a cog before I can blink! :D

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Difficult to get the data unless you hang around MK5/6 Golf forums :)

 

My dealer insider hasn't mentioned any significant problems with either the wet or dry clutch boxes.

 

Those there fellas at JBS motorsport have been turboing MK5 R32s for a while now and simply put stronger clutches into the DSG boxes. No other mods necessary.

 

Expanding on what Rob_B said, I'm of the opinion that if you take an engine out of it's natural environment and plonk it into a different one, it's just not the same and it's also becoming increasingly difficult to retrofit modern engines into older cars because of the myriad of ancillary systems, all tied together with a CAN bus.

 

Keep it simple, keep it reliable. If you have a VR6 already, turbo it. If you have a 16V or G60, 1.8T it.

[paddy26 3]

In PVW Jan 2011 there is a mk1 gti running fully adjustable boost from 355bhp to 466bhp. He is running a golf mk5/Audi a3 o2s 6 speed GQP gearbox. His name is Maurice Reeves and I think this is his build thread:

 

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97945

I havnt looked through the build thread yet, I only know what I read in PVW.

He's also on YouTube.

 

The o2s should be plenty capable of running the power you want.

 

Paddy

[Kevin Bacon 5]

It's the torque which kills gearboxes. The 02S is from the non-turbo MK5s, so it's torque handling is limited. They fitted the 02M to the turbo cars as it's a LOT stronger. But it all depends on how the car is driven, where in the rev range the torque kicks in, the tyres, clutch etc etc. Loads of variables. Someone on here fitted an 02S to his VR6 and it works great apparently, so it's definitely an option providing the torque isn't excessive.

 

I thought Maurice Reeves passed away not long ago? And according to that thread, the MK1 was piled into a tyre wall some time ago.

[Conker 0]

...If you have a 16V or G60, 1.8T it.

 

+1

 

If you are worried about engine capacity class limits, the 1.8T would give you a lot of bang for the buck with loads and loads of off-the-shelf bits and online knowledge/support?

[corozin 0]

If you don't already have the base Corrado then my suggestion would be to scrap the idea altogether and use a Polo as your starting point. I've just saved you 200kg in weight.

[coullstar 0]

I thought Maurice Reeves passed away not long ago? And according to that thread, the MK1 was piled into a tyre wall some time ago.

 

The car did end up with a front end smash at Combe a while back. Its a very very sorted Mk1 now. I dont think he has passed away as a guy on Clubgti keeps regular updates on whats happening to the car. The last thing was a sequential gearbox IIRC.

 

Bakc to the question, VRT but build in some progressive boost control or use Racelogic TC if rules allow. From the couple of times Ive had mine on the track is all to easy to come out the corner and for the front to spin up as you put the power on, especially in the wet. Ive also got a 2.0TFSI though and with a K04 they are pulling some impressive power and torque figures. If it were a simpler swap I would go with the TFSI but as you have the VR try that.

[Barry_gti 0]

Interesting opinions guys. Should have said I am a Tech and can complete all the work myself, so cost of fitting TFSi is mainly time/fabrication. Wouldn't go manual, only real reason I would go TFSI is for DSG. A sequential box setup for 02J/M would be at least cost of a dog gear set and SQS Sequential shifter.

 

And I am in New Zealand, VR6 engines and manual boxes aren't as easy to come by.

 

Hmmmm still confused, I love VR6's and wanted a turbo one for a long time...

[Rob_B 0]

The thing with the tfsi is that there is no easy way of mounting it in the Corrado chassis. None of the mounts are the same. Where as on the 1.8t you can basically move the mounts to the Corrado positions, the 2.0l won't have any of that. So I was looking at welding mk5 mounts onto the chassis leg and trying to fit the dog bone mount aswell. Not that easy.

The second problem is getting the wiring sorted. There isn't any stand alone around at the moment as far as I know that will run the high pressure fuel system. So that means fitting the VAG ecu which as you know operates everything with canbus. You won't be fitting half the stuff from a mk5 into a Corrado so you have a few things to get around.

Next bit is custom drive shafts.

Gearbox is too big to fit into the Corrado.

It could be done, and has been done here. It just requires alot of time and money thrown at it.