Non-Intercooled VR6 Turbo kit, some questions

[Krazee 0]

Hello. Dont know how many of you frequent the 12v VR6 forum on http://www.VWVortex.com, but Kinetic Motorsport's latest VR6-Turbo kit has been the talk of the town. 6psi, non-IC, $2300USD, and 240whp/245wtq. For the money it seems to be an incredible deal, and its something I am looking into, but a couple things have come up.

 

more info here: http://www.kineticmotorsport.com/projects/kineticvr6tkit.html

 

At 6psi, would the installation of an Intercooler be a good idea, not worth it, do less harm than good, more harm than good, etc, etc?

 

One of my friends made a valid point. While the dyno run shows the Golf putting down a smooth power band, when you run on the street, boost comes on quicker, since ure dipping in and out of traffic, giving it gas on the highway, etc, etc. And since turbo boost is not linear, the sudden influx of boost can wear on the engine and after one summer of running it without an IC, detonation will occur, by product of hotter operating temps, boost, etc, etc. This makes sense to me, does it to you guys?

 

Another one of my friends stands by the idea that up to 12psi of boost, no IC is needed, just proper fueling and you good to go. Thus implying that the install of an IC would be a waste of money.

 

On a daily basis, I would run the KMS kit from 6-8psi and then if I were to take it to the 1/4mile or want to have fun one night, I would push it to 10psi. This I have set at my personal max.

 

So whats true and what isnt? do both carry some validity? I just have always been under the impression that if you turbo, you need an IC, and the concept of liner boost vs. non-linear (turbo vs. supercharger) makes perfect sense to me.

 

The other thing. Before I tack this turbo kit on, I plan on rebuilding my engine. What makes more sense, building a nice stout NA motor and then adding the turbo, or building a turbo motor (turbo pistons, lower compression, etc,)? I dont forsee needing to, but I would like to be able to remove the kit and still drive the car, should something go wrong.

 

Any information is appreciated.

thanks,

LOUIS

[PhatVR6 0]

I wouldn't dream of running a turbo without an intercooler or charge cooler. this is what puts me off the vortech supercharger setups.

 

blowing hot air into your engine is not a good idea, and will lead to detonation.

 

can't you buy the turbo kit and then fit an intercooler as well?

 

I personally would make up my own kit from ATP http://www.8vturbo.com and choose all the componens individually to suit my own needs. I've already done it on a friends G60, it worked out at about £1500 all in, and it's the maddest sounding golf I've ever heard. runs 14.4 1/4's too, and it's still not even setup right yet.

[niels 0]

I hope this has nothing to do with my beloved friend Kinetikslc (Kris Jagdeo) who used to frequent the tex and successfully ripped off people for thousands of US ( including me).

 

My "other" car is a audi rs2 with a humongous charger and intercooler. Massive power (385hp) but massive turbo lag.

 

Prefer to tune the NA vr6 to its "natural" limits.

 

Cheers,

 

Niko

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I agree with Phat.

 

As an example, when a Schrick VGI manifold is at it's peak tuning length, it generates positive induction pulses at 6psi (or so I've read) and without remapping, the engine will more than likely pink.....and that's with air drawn in at ambient temperature. Imagine running 6psi of hot air pretty much all the while?

 

Having said that, several people on this forum are running at least 6psi from Vortech blowers with no ICs and no pinking, so it can be done and the VR can seemingly take it, so long as the ECU is properly remapped. I'm sure the engine would be a lot happier and longer lasting with intercooling though.

 

I would use water injection as a precaution if not running an IC.

 

K

[Krazee 0]

Niko, this has nothing to do with Kris from Vortex. Kinetic Motorsports is one of two companies formed when Momentum Motorsports split into Momentum Car Parts and Kinetic Motorsports.

 

Anyway. I agree with the comments Phat and Kev made, I have similar reservations about not running an IC. A comment, though, about the Vortech supercharger kits. Those one can run without issue without an IC. Since the power delivery is linear, not a sudden influx of boost at a given time, then one really doesnt have to worry about the engine detonating. In addition, the Vortech chargers replace the stock air-box and route their intake where the carbon canister normally resides, so in effect creating a Cold-Air intake of sorts.

 

Another Q, is a tubular manifold a good idea with 6 psi?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Good points made about the Vortech.

 

Not seen many tubular turbo manifolds but so long as it's high in Nickel content, no worries. Most people use cast manifolds as Nickel needs to be introduced to the molten iron/steel and they can withstand engine rocking a lot more than tubular headers.

 

K

[niels 0]

Niko, this has nothing to do with Kris from Vortex. Kinetic Motorsports is one of two companies formed when Momentum Motorsports split into Momentum Car Parts and Kinetic Motorsports.

 

 

relieved to hear it

[LowG 0]

why not spend 300-400 pounds in a air/water ic pwr has a few, than you can turn the boost a little higher, lowering the compression would be a next step. Chargers dont produce loads of heat thats why loads of ppl run them non intercooled but a turbo will produce higher temps and combine that with a hot summer you have a bomb. Go front mount if you cant do a/w but if you go turbo you have to be cooled 8) 8)

[Krazee 0]

LowG: I have contemplated the install of an air-water, but I have also been told that the money put into it would be not needed for the following reason: air-water on a daily driver wont be able to stay cold enough and that its more effort than its worth. Im not to familiar with air-water and thier benefits/problems, etc,etc.

 

Another thing, because of personal preference, I dont want to install a front mount. Im one for the whole sleeper concept. For this reason I initially thought air-water. What I had in mind was a custom air-water in the spot where the air-box normally goes, leading into a tubular manifold. On the opposite side, the water tank where the battery normally goes. Battery would then be in the trunk/boot.

 

This is the "conventional" IC install I would be going for, though in a VR of course and then on the left side feeding a tubular manifold. A hood scoop of sorts would feed it air:

[trendy tramp 0]

the problem with a non IC turbo over a charger is the fact you have a compressor housing bolted next to a very hot turbine housing so you will be heating the charge air substantially even if you are running at low boost

 

tt

[corradovr6sc 0]

If you run an intercooler with 6 psi, you lose boost and power. The chips are mapped to compensate for changing temperatures by retarding/advancing the timing etc.

[trendy tramp 0]

yes but if you run a turbo without an IC you run the risk of losing your engine - i'd settle for a loss in boost pressure

 

the chip can only compensate for so much temperature - you get a hot day and busy traffic conditions and you're in trouble. at least with an IC in traffic you'll get some degree of free convection even if you've no forward airflow

 

tt

[Henny 0]

Another thing, because of personal preference, I dont want to install a front mount. Im one for the whole sleeper concept. For this reason I initially thought air-water. What I had in mind was a custom air-water in the spot where the air-box normally goes, leading into a tubular manifold. On the opposite side, the water tank where the battery normally goes. Battery would then be in the trunk/boot.]

 

Huh? You want a sleeper look with a tubular manifold and a supercharger on a VR6?!? I take it you mean sleeper look from the outside of the car then? ;)

 

Why not fit the Golf G60 intercooler? It fits onto existing mouting points in front of the radiator on BOTH Golf G60 and Corrado G60's and therefore Corrado VR6's and doesn't get in the way of any of the original panelwork so there's no way you can see it from enywhere other than inside the engine bay... :? It's full width so will give sooo much better intercooling than an air/water cooler and is genuine VAG, so you know the quality will be spot on... They tend to go for around £500 with all of the G60 pipework on Ebay, or through Darren 8) (G-man - if he can find another one... ;) )

[Krazee 0]

Huh? You want a sleeper look with a tubular manifold and a supercharger on a VR6?!? I take it you mean sleeper look from the outside of the car then? ;)

 

Yeah, sleeper from the outside. I dont mind having a nicely build and presentable motor but from the outside, I dont want people to know what Im running.

 

About the G60 IC, do you have an pics of it? Curious how the inlet and outlet is positioned. Go to know about these VAG items.....ya learn something new every day.

 

EDIT: Couple other questions. Whats the concensus on air-water ICs? can they be run daily? better not to?

[Henny 0]

About the G60 IC, do you have an pics of it? Curious how the inlet and outlet is positioned. Go to know about these VAG items.....ya learn something new every day.

Yup, here's a comparison of the standard Corrado G60 radiator with the Golf G60 intercooler so you get an idea of the size... I've not got any photos of the intercooler fitted yet, 'cos my engine is still in my garage! :roll: :lol:

 

I've got one photo of the intercooler and rad sat on the cross member though.... 8)