brake upgrade help!!

[RADO.001 0]

wheres the best place to get the mk4 calipers and carriers for the rear, im sure they cost the earth from the stealers?!

[steve_16v 0]

Do a search for mk4 rear calipers in Drivetrain, there's no doubt loads of threads about them.

 

edit: had a look myself out of curiosity, you can get calipers from GSF (or a breakers), you don't need to change the carriers, and you will need a conversion kit for the rear brake lines (C&R Enterprises, or Stealth will be able to sort this out for about £30.

 

The calipers are about £65+vat and from what I can gather most people do this to improve the handbrake, not the braking.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

RADO.001, whenever I've looked for brakes http://www.motorsportworld.co.uk have usually ended up the cheapest. They also have information about the coefficient of friction for the brake pads.

 

Agreed, they're good. Also, Julian that runs Balance Motorsport is a wizard on brakes and suspension, he is who I bought my APs from after many a lengthy chat about the best brakes for a nose heavy car like the VR - http://www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/main ... ory=Brakes

Brake pad coeff is a good indicator of how strong it will bite. The DS2500 is 0.5 from cold to max heat, so a good all round pad. OE pads are about 0.3, so don't bite as hard. 0 is akin to ice on ice and 1 is akin to sticking a bar through the spokes. VRs need a very high coeff imo, which is why I went for Pagid RS15 as they're 0.6+ - http://www.braketechnology.com/racecharacteristics.html

Race pads are fine for road use btw, but expect lots of noise and dust, which doesn't bother me personally. Just avoid endurance pads as they need a LOT of heat to work properly.

 

As far as reading up about them goes your best bet is to look on the net for reviews of any specific component you're interested in. Just remember that there appears to be an inherent snobbery against all things non-Brembo. While Brembo's pedigree cannot be questioned, it must be particularly galling for a manufacturer with the repute of say Tarox or AP Racing to be dismissed as essentially second-rate by comparison by people who seemingly are more concerned with the writing on the caliper.

 

Yep, reading of others' experiences on forums is a good idea. That's how I discovered the Pagid greys. If you read Mitsubishi lancer forums, a lot of the Evo 7/8/9 owners ditch the Brembos in favour of AP Racing as their calipers and discs are a lot better for track use.

AP and Brembo merged a while back actually, so expect some exciting new brakes to follow shortly, including aftermarket carbon ceramic discs and one piece calipers. Brembo do seem the preferred choice with some folk as they're readily available from lots of cars, Seats, FIATs, Evos, Porsches etc etc. AP don't supply the OE market with brakes, so you have to dig deep for those but I can vouch for the quality and performance.

 

Drilled discs are pretty much always bad news. On Porsches and Ferraris they are cast, not simply drilled. They're also much thicker than on aftermarket applications, even the likes of Brembo.

 

Disc performance is down to the quality of the iron, the venting technique and size. My APs are 28mm thick and radius holed with 48 vane venting, which acts as a centrifugal pump, blasting spent pad material and hot gases out of the discs. 911 discs are 32mm thick and have the same centrifugal technique. I wouldn't use drillings or grooves in a standard sized and thickness disc personally. You have to keep the holes and grooves clear of compacted dust too, or you effectively have a solid disc!

I use an air line once a month on mine.

 

My advise would be to get Ferrodo DS2500 pads, Tarox g88 discs and braided hoses. That set-up will make a massive improvement over standard discs/pads.

 

I didn't like the DS2500s personally, but they're better than OE ones for sure. I prefer pagid or Endless.

 

There's also more to it than whacking on bigger brakes, it's how the chassis is able to deploy the stopping power that counts too. Porsche are the masters for that, they have massive hubs that don't flex and twist, among other things. So uprated wishbone bushes and top mounts plus spot on geometry go a long way to improving braking power too.

[steve_16v 0]

Brake pad coeff is a good indicator of how strong it will bite. The DS2500 is 0.5 from cold to max heat, so a good all round pad. OE pads are about 0.3, so don't bite as hard. 0 is akin to ice on ice and 1 is akin to sticking a bar through the spokes. VRs need a very high coeff imo, which is why I went for Pagid RS15 as they're 0.6+ -

 

RS15's are highly rated but aren't made for standard VR6, you can get the RS19 but they cost about £90 more than the ferrodo and have a lower braking coeff, or the RS4-2 which are £60 more and even lower coeff. What was it you didn't you like about the DS2500's? In terms of value for money I don't know of any better pads.

 

Race pads are fine for road use btw, but expect lots of noise and dust, which doesn't bother me personally. Just avoid endurance pads as they need a LOT of heat to work properly.

 

They are fine on the roads as long as you get ones that work well at lower temps, but the compounds used in race pads tend to be more corrosive and chuck a lot out more dust so you need to clean your wheels a lot more frequently.

 

I wouldn't use drillings or grooves in a standard sized and thickness disc personally. You have to keep the holes and grooves clear of compacted dust too, or you effectively have a solid disc!

I use an air line once a month on mine.

 

Standard Corrado size discs create plenty of gasses that need venting and are big enough to take grooves without any ill effects. Certainly wouldn't advise them on cars with small discs though. Good call on the air line. Drilled discs are fine if they are good quality thick discs, otherwise they are prone to cracking and shorten the life of the disc, the only reason you can get standard sized drilled ones is people demand them for cosmetic reasons. If a manufacturer didn't do them they would lose sales to someone who does make them.

 

There's also more to it than whacking on bigger brakes, it's how the chassis is able to deploy the stopping power that counts too. Porsche are the masters for that, they have massive hubs that don't flex and twist, among other things. So uprated wishbone bushes and top mounts plus spot on geometry go a long way to improving braking power too.

 

Agreed, putting a set of grippy tyres will also make a massive difference to braking power.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Shame they don't do the RS15 in 280 pad profile. Do they do them in 288/312 profile?

 

I wouldn't read too much into the friction coefficient. Normal pagid fast roads have significantly better initial bite than DS2500s and they're nothing like 0.5, and that's why I don't like the Ferrodos, they're a bit overrated imo. I tried them on the 312s at silly cost (£130!!) and they were worse than basic Pagid FRs you can get for 50 notes.

 

The AP racing kit came with DS2500s aswell and I found the same. Just vague feeling and feel like they'll fade quite easily, and they need a fair bit of heat to work properly.

 

The RS15s have better cold bite than the DSs and at temperature (only 3 or 4 firm pedal presses) they are vicious, but in a controllable manner. Stamp on them at 100+ and you stop, the harder you press, the harder they bite. The DSs just reach their friction coeff plateau (too quickly for my liking) and stay there.....the harder you push, nothing more happens.

 

That's just my experience of them.....on two different setups.

 

Pagid all the way for me. Was going to try DS3000s but I hear they are wheel wreckers as they contain iron. The RS15s are ceramic based and the dust (touch wood) so far hasn't harmed my wheels, and I don't clean them as often as I should!

[steve_16v 0]

As far as I'm aware you can't get the RS15 in any standard VAG sizes. Shame because they do sound like very good pads. At the rate you change wheels I doubt they'd have time to do much damage to them :wink:

 

DS3000s are pretty much race only pads, don't work very well and are horrendously noisy when cold, and they wreck your wheels. However, they are extremely good once warmed up.

 

I think how much anyone likes a particular set of brake pads depends a lot on how they drive, plus it's only worth getting pads like the ferodo or pagids if you do a lot of spirited driving. The roads I drive on are pretty narrow and have frequent blind corners so the brakes get a good pasting, that's why the DS2500 are next on the list (only £75 delivered for 256mm discs).

 

Maybe they just didn't suit your driving style? There must be a reason they're included in the AP package and come so highly recommended.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah that's true, LOL! but I love black dusty wheels as it gives the car a raw 'spirited' and well used look, rather than a pampered look :-)

 

The RS15s can be occasionally quite squawky when hot at traffic crawling speeds, but otherwise are silent. You just have to grind off the top layer every now and then ;-) It's actually the day you fit the pads that determines the noise levels and performance generally. If you don't bake the resins through thoroughly during bed-in, they can be quite poor on initial bite and usually noisy. I have heard the DS3000s can wake the dead though!

 

Yeah you're right, pads, like tyres and suspension are highly subjective. I drive on similar roads to you and the brakes do get used a lot, and hard.

The DS2500s aren't bad pads, far from it. AP selected them because they're easy to live with, last well, quiet and cheap (£85). You don't get the loud thrumming through the floor with the DSs that you get with the RSs (because of the disc holes) and they don't squeal at slow speeds. But with the RSs I can brake extremely late into beds, far later than I can with the DSs.....but then the RSs are twice the price mate, so you would expect twice the gripping power. They're not for everyone, but I love them :-)

 

The DSs are more a daily pad I'd say, but you'd be surprised how easy the RSs are to live with aswell - for a race pad.

 

I reckon on a modern, over servo'd car, the Pagids would be overkill and you would over brake the car most of the time, but on a woolly and vague pedal like the VR's, they're much more managable. I'm going to look at retrofitting the late Vento VR6 pedal as it has better leverage characterstics and therefore no slack on initial biting. Although, because of the Corrado's pedal not being aggressive, they're very easy to modulate when you just want to knock, say, 10mph off before entering bend.

[RADO.001 0]

well i think ivw worked out what i should be looking for from reading what you two have said, here gos:

 

* mk4 rear calipers £65+£30 for conversion kit

*braided hoses £82

*tarox G88 discs £175 front & £154 rear

*ferrodo DS2500 pads £68 front & £66 rear

rounded up to around £640 :shock:

 

not cheep for just upgarding instead of enlagering?!?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Are 3mm spacers out of the question as you can go for the 312s if you do?

 

Yes that is a fair bit of loot for replacements in the standard size, but should be a lot better.

[steve_16v 0]

£640 is a lot but you don't need to do it all at once, see how you get on with just doing the hoses, fronts discs and pads first. Upgrading the rears discs/pads isn't really worth the expense for the benefits.

 

Kev let us know how you get on with that vento pedal, sounds promising

[RADO.001 0]

kevHaywire, dont think id dare space the DZ's anymore!

steve_16v, ok mate ill try the front discs, pad & hoses kit first (still 325 notes) and see how that gos, anythings got to be better than the squerm i got out of her braking the other nite!

[steve_16v 0]

£325 is still a lot but you get what you pay for and that setup will improve your braking massively, incidentally you can get the hoses on the bay for £64 delivered, here.