Mystery timing problem g60, help!

[Shannon 10]

Hi All,

 

I have a 1990 G60, (PG) and I have a timing mystery. I'm probably overlooking something but I'll throw it out there and see if there is a logical explanation or if its just rado gremlins.

 

1). #1 piston is at TDC and measured. I am using the cyl on the timing belt side. (as a marine mechanic I would find the #1 cyl is on top close to the flywheel, I only put that in there because of some vwvortex discussions some claimed it was the same on the rado too. Just in case I'm wrong I did an experiment with the cyl close to the flywheel and had same results in that at TDC the flywheel was not even close to the "O" mark)

 

2). With #1 piston at TDC the crank pulley mark lined up perfectly on the lower cover arrow. I set the cam sprocket according to the right mark on edge of head. (aligned the two dots to the edge according to Bentley). I aligned the intermediate shaft to the v at the crank pulley according to Bentley and adjusted the distributor 1mm mark to the rotor at TDC.

 

3). I applied belt and tension, then hand turned the crank several revolutions to make sure it stayed aligned.

 

4). When everything is showing TDC (crank, cam, interm shaft, distributor) the flywheel is on cyl off of its TDC mark.

 

I can't find anything specific to this mystery and my question is how can this happen? If I time the rado to the flywheel mark then #1 piston will not be close to TDC, but with the crank pulley it hits the mark at TDC. and of course the bottom line is that the rado with spark (verified with 4 cyl spark board) fuel, proper gap (.026) on plugs wont even hint life. It turns fast but not even a sputter. :scratch:

 

Look forward to hearing from the group. After I get through this mystery I'll post more of the fun things I've done with this rado.

[Yandards 0]

Hallo,

 

There is a guide complete with pics and explanations for setting up the timing on a G60 here.

 

Personally I would always use the 0 deg mark on the flywheel to get no 1 TDC as it is much more acurate and its also impossible to fit the flywheel in the incorrect orientation. There should be 2 marks on the flywheel if it has not been replaced, a 0 deg mark complete with '0' and a mark at 6 degrees BTDC - the 6 deg mark will not be there if the flywheel has been replaced.

 

The problem with using the crank pulleys as a reference is that they are very difficult to align as the inner wing provents correct viewing, so once again the guide in the link has some steps to get around this - frankly the intermediate pulley is just a rough guide to get the car to start, timing has to be set at 2-2.5k RPM.

[g60ian 10]

sounds like your crank pulley has worn its notch,it happens to all of them eventually

[Shannon 10]

g60ian, I appreciate the shot in the dark on this.

 

Crank pulley is brand new from Bahn Brenner. The pulley is precise as can be verified from #1 piston being at TDC when notch on pulley is at the arrow on lower timing cover.

 

When the flywheel is used (the "O" under housing mark) the #1 piston is not even close to TDC its much past TDC, as verified by the #1 piston being well into the power stroke on its way to the bottom of the stroke.

[dannyboy 0]

Same as yandards.dizzy needs to be set while engine is at 2k rpm.Use the flywheel 0 mark,its more acurate

 

Not to sound stupid but are you 100% sure you have the correct timing belt? Some people have been known to be given wrong belts. If the engine doesnt stay in timing,then you have the wrong belt.

Also ian has point,you need to check the bottom crank pulley,the crank bolt has a habit of working loose and the keyway for the woodruff key gets damaged causing problems like you have.

[Yandards 0]

g60ian, I appreciate the shot in the dark on this.

 

Crank pulley is brand new from Bahn Brenner. The pulley is precise as can be verified from #1 piston being at TDC when notch on pulley is at the arrow on lower timing cover.

 

When the flywheel is used (the "O" under housing mark) the #1 piston is not even close to TDC its much past TDC, as verified by the #1 piston being well into the power stroke on its way to the bottom of the stroke.

 

Something is seriously wrong if No 1 is not at TDC with the flywheel at 0 deg mark!

 

Have you got another mark on the flywheel to indicate 6 deg BTDC?

[dannyboy 0]

I believe,nearly 99% sure that the flywheel can be put on more than one way so maybe in the past the flywheel was changed and not put on correct way.To comfirm that it had a new one,as yandards said the second timing mark 6 btdc will not be on the new flywheel unless they marked it when installing.

 

if theyre is'nt then you have a new one and the flywheel may not be put on excatly how it should(no biggy though) ,so to that end use the crank pulley mark to time it up

[Supercharged 2]

I don't think you can though... 5 holes and one is off-set

 

I believe,nearly 99% sure that the flywheel can be put on more than one way so maybe in the past the flywheel was changed and not put on correct way.To comfirm that it had a new one,as yandards said the second timing mark 6 btdc will not be on the new flywheel unless they marked it when installing.

 

if theyre is'nt then you have a new one and the flywheel may not be put on excatly how it should(no biggy though) ,so to that end use the crank pulley mark to time it up

 

---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------

 

Just read the original post...

 

Cyl 1 is the belt side, if the flywheel is out or not marked it shouldn't matter if the pulleys are correct.

 

You say it turns fast and will not fire - how fast? have you tested compression? tried moving the dizzy around while cranking to get it started?

 

What's the history of the car / engine? did it run before you tried changing the belt?

 

Checked simple things like firing order is correct?? 1-3-4-2

[Shannon 10]

Good Morning all! and /or good evening.

 

Ok I'm a bit human again was turning into a monster last night with limited vocabulary and at 11:00 PM realized that this puzzle was getting the best of me so I apologize for not getting back to all of you, and I might have just been censored anyway:bonk:

 

First to Yan, I agree with the work you did and general premise of timing to the flywheel v the crank. before getting started yesterday I made it a point to read the entire 8 pages that followed the work you did one Saturday (I'm sure it took a few cold one's but anyone attempting to be greasy and make note of every step at the same time to take the headache out of a job is worthy of respect!).

 

2). I gave the guys at Bahn Brenner a call on the off chance that the flywheel wasn't as precise as we want to believe. They confirmed that the flywheel on the PG (1989-1990) motor could be put on outside of TDC and that they frequently correct the lack of attention to detail that parts changers (as apposed to technician that will take the time to properly diagnose) have made on their customers cars. They confirmed the need to have the #1 piston at TDC when reinstalling the flywheel or have the marks of original position at least when pulling it off. The common reason for this is when changing a clutch. This is a coincidence, my clutch was changed just before I purchased the car a year ago. The rado has had 2 owners, one in his fifties and the other in his mid forties, mature owned and not tore up from kids, plus all records to include original dealer brochure and stock radio (though I was impressed, I saved the radio and carefully installed a tuned stereo system of my liking without any cuts to original interior and went to the stealer and spent a hell of a lot of time going through the slides to order ALL the interior fasteners to replace them during this project) I went through that so you can get a feel for the car in question and me the owner because its important to know if your dealing with a $300 special held together with duct tape, abuse by teenagers most of its life or a mature owned, low mileage car from the Pacific Northwest which has the reputation of very little corrosion or extreme temps).

 

3).Danny, I didn't take your question as stupid at all, yes belts can be wrong just like the old "well I know it can't be the alt because I just bought it" and you need to go through 3 alt before you get one that was rebuilt right. on this project I ordered a 6 rib Conti belt that was supposed to be a 1642. The box said 1642 but the belt was a 1264, I'm from the old school, verify everything! don't assume. I did verify that the timing belt was the right size, by the numbers on the belt and the proof of turning the engine over and all original marks I aligned kept in alignment also verifying the proper tension. Also good tip on the crank key and bolt, I believe the bolt problem comes from the fact that it is a stretch bolt and if you take it to "Joe six-pack" chop and rob mechanic for work, chances are he is not aware that when the bolt is taken off you need to replace it with a new one + Locktight (again old school, if it spins you Locktight or other thread locking product) + torque it to spec. what started this project originally 4 months ago and my future children’s college fund was that the bolt came off and the key on the back side of the crank sprocket sheared clean off! yep and if you were to guess that the timing belt had been replaced just before purchase, you are right again. I didn't have pleasant thoughts about that shop. I also didn't have any evidence of Locktight on the threads. That’s why I purchased a new billet crank pulley from Bahn Brenner, but I also bought all new sprockets, a tensioner, ALL seals, and bolts/ hardware from the stealer for the timing belt face of the motor (including all bracket hardware, at 20 years if I remove the hardware then I replace it with new).

 

4). Yan, your right! in this case it was the 6 inches of grey matter in the parts changer that replaced the clutch. yes the 6 deg mark is properly highlighted with white touch up paint but is only 14.5mm from the TDC mark. no other marks (I've spent a lot of time on inspecting every mm on the flywheel a few times over).

 

5). Danny, Agreed! this is why I visually verified with a screwdriver in the #1 cyl (I know, you have to be careful, there is a tool designed to find absolute TDC, $$$) finding TDC then I observed the placement of the crank pulley mark, it was at the Arrow TDC mark verifier on the lower timing cover. Logic then says use it! and I proceeded to line up all the other marks (cam, inter med sprockets and distributor mark to rotor all while the #1 piston was in TDC with screwdriver in it).

 

6). Supercharged, There might be a euro model that we didn't get in the states that has 5 holes, 1 off center but this model has 6 identical holes, evenly spaced. I did move the dizzy around. One of the first projects I did with the car was to remove the battery and install a yellow top optima (if anyone is interested I can share with pictures on a separate post, fell free) took the time to clean up the spider web of ground/ power wires in the engine compartment and through out the factory crap power wires to the starter, alt, and battery. I through out the old grounds and replaced with "O" main power and main ground (unnecessary I'm sure but then remember when voltage drops in general amps increase, a common computer killer) using all copper or stainless steel connectors eliminating whenever possible extra connectors in-line creating unnecessary resistance or extra corrosion opportunities (I'm a Marine Mechanic by trade, school was at Marine Mechanics Institute in Orlando Florida, my apprenticeship with Correct Craft- makers of tournament ski boats). the battery terminals are for show with platinum, gold plating, and the positive has voltage readout. I built a box in the back to house it keeping weight balance in mind. The power to starter (everything else) had some improvement and it turns fast. I used a spark board to visual the spark in all 4 cyl at the same time and its strong (this confirms function of new coil, cap, rotor, and 8 mm wires from Bahn Brenner). Spark plugs new but same as I always use (5s instead of 6s) and all gapped to .026 (Bentley range). I checked fuel at the rail and that leaves mechanical as the culprit unless I've missed something. Yes firing order is correct and I went through turning the cam and verified that the intake lobes, exhaust lobes are cycling properly, (yep this is when I started to turn monster and quit for the night). The car ran great before I started project, I just did a 300 mile trip to Oregon and back. Here’s the next stage to the mystery, I did check the compression, and all cyl had 0 compression, I've never seen that before, 1 or two or just wore out low but none? so I check the compression on my lawn mower and god to know its fine! but more importantly the tester (a Craftsman in hard case) was working. I'm at a loss for what could cause all cyl to not have compression. The injectors were fine and I have not pulled them out, if I did bend a valve (doubt that because the motor is a non-interference motor, but just on the off chance it did and I've experienced that I would have some missed compression not all, or motor might not turn, or...... the motor turns smooth, was free of metal in the oil (I had the oil pan off and inspected the oil pump also) and the cam followers are within spec.)

 

7). Please give me ideas, I think the compression is the problem not so much the timing now. I appreciate all your time on this with me and hope to be able to return the favor. Thanks All

[g60ian 10]

ok let me get this right,the car ran fine before now has no compression after the timing belt has been changed? somehow you have bent a valve in every cylinder there is no other answer to this unless your tool isnt sealing right in the head,head off im afraid

[Supercharged 2]

Yep, at least you found the issue is not timing - as above it's probably head off time - no idea what has happened here though, have you done any head work at all like cam / tappets??? or bottom end work for that matter??

 

Only time I've seen this before is when a head has been skimmed below tolerance and valves are not closing to where they are seated - this situation gives a reading of 0 because air is just escaping, most other issues would at least give some compression and it's unlikely you have a whole in each piston!

[dannyboy 0]

im a little confused too,i thing i always believed that if g60 head was never reskimmed that the engine was basically non-interference dispite what the bentley said.ive got three g60 engines in my garage and put one out by 180 degree by accident and bent no valves.

 

I have a US g60 engine and euro one stripped so ill 100% confirm if the flywheel can go on one way or several to see if theres a difference tomorrow

 

If you bent valves youd hear it as it would have very metallic sound when he first turned it over(you turned it hand right?)

 

id concentrate on the cam pulley and crank pulley being lined up correct.the intermiedate pulley isnt vital as you have to move the dizzy anyway but get it as close as you can

No compression is either bent valve(s) or your timing is off

[Yandards 0]

Just had time to read this properly.

 

Without checking the parts catalogue I think there is a chance whoever fitted the flywheel may have fitted the wrong one - hence the No 1 TDC mark being in the wrong place.

 

You are correct that the engine to head is not an interference fit and as you have only been cranking it on the start there should be no valve damage.

 

I would do the following, set No 1 TDC by using a drop stick method down the plug bore, then adjust the cam pulley to the No 1 TDC position and refit the belt - hopefully you will now have compression, it won't be spot on but should be enough to get some compression.

 

Genuine replacement VW flywheels come with only the 0 deg mark, you need to add the 6 deg mark by hand according to the workshop manual.

 

Finally the other problem you may is that the camshaft pulley woodruff key has sheared and the camshaft pulley is just rotating on the shaft, take the rocker cover off and rotate the cam pulley by hand and see if the cam works as expected. It is well worth checking that the woodruff key on the camshaft is in the correct spot by removing the bolt too.

[dannyboy 0]

Just had time to read this properly.

 

Finally the other problem you may is that the camshaft pulley woodruff key has sheared and the camshaft pulley is just rotating on the shaft, take the rocker cover off and rotate the cam pulley by hand and see if the cam works as expected. It is well worth checking that the woodruff key on the camshaft is in the correct spot by removing the bolt too.

 

good one yands,forgot about that too!

[Shannon 10]

Hey All,

 

Thank you for the input. Supercharged and G60, you were on the money. I really did not want to have to pull the head but when it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probly a duck. As odd as it sounded to have all the valves bent, I had to look. I took some time away from the project to be able to have a fresh mind on this and last night I took the head off. Every valve is bent, some more than others, but all are bent. My pistons have minor scuffing off the thin carbon layer of about half of each valve, other than that the pistons are in great shape on top. I've never seen all valves bend without serious damage to the lower end. I'm wondering if this happened before. The skim on the head makes sense. I had a thought, if the crank sprocket key to crank sheared off and the little chip in the end of the crank that makes the new sprocket loose by about 1 mm, with the pressures that made that chip possible, could the crank have broke causing the flywheel to slip under the pressure and be approx 1 stroke off, but with the light load of turning by hand or even with just the starter turn fine? I'm going to take off the crank next and inspect. Also of course look for internal trauma to bearings, rod, etc.

I seem to be at a cross roads now. I have some options open to change heads to 16v or aba, or port the pg when putting this back together. Also if the crank is gone there doesn't look like many options for a replacement.

Yan, the flywheel is stock, because I can see both factory timing marks, and if I understand you correct only the stock flywheel has both marks stamped in it. Since I'm pulling this apart any thoughts on lighter alloy flywheels. My Corrado is a toy or as I tell my wife its "therapy" not a daily driver, although I do like to have some reliability out of it so when my P38 2001 Range Rover needs attention I have sufficient back up.

My very first car when I was 17 was a 1980 Sciracco S, White with 200,000 miles on it, I've had 4 other Sciracco's, 2 Porsche's and an Audi Quattro that have been my sports cars over the years, and owning the Corrado was a dream of mine since the first time I sat in one on a show room floor in Fairbanks Alaska of all places. It was a brand new 1989 yellow G60, and it was JAN 1992, and -40 F outside and I was crazy enough to want to drive it. I was great! I even have a picture of it still (Polaroid). The salesman had to drive it back on the lot (lot rules were salesman had to drive on and off the lot) and I'm glad it was him because we were hit from his side by a city plow truck that blew a stop sign having too many adult beverages in him. the car is a tank and we both walked out. I love the car, just thought I'd share a little of my obsession:cool:.