Vr6 suspension set up.

[sleeper16 0]

Hi guys been having a look on the forum but there doesn’t seem to be anything relating to this.

 

My C used to handle fantastically now it feels sketchy like I really have to go slow for corners 40-60mph on corners that I know can be done much faster in fact have been in the C. This has been an issue for some time now and I want it back to good road holding abilities.

 

I have just replaced the struts with coilovers only lowered about 20mm brand new top mounts and bearings. I will be replacing wishbone bushes and rear beam bushes I have an up rated rear antiroll bar to go I just need the mounts (anyone know where to get these?) I think a rear wheel bearing could be throwing it off so I will be replacing with the later mk4 design. Is there anything else I could do?

 

Also the main point of this post is to ask about caster/camber tracking set up, what’s the best to go for, for country road use. I’ve heard that use the recommended amount (-1.3deg?) then for country road add another deg so (-2.3deg?) and toe of 1.3 deg at 20deg lock?

 

 

Any advice is really appreciated

 

Cheers

[DriverVR6 11]

sleeper16, what I would have done is check the condition of the existing components to try to establish why it did not handle as well as you say it used to. By changing everything you are introducing loads of variables into the equation. Every part you put on needs to work in harmony together. Just throwing on a set of "random" coilovers, then some bushes, anti roll bar, etc will not work. If it was that easy then every race team would just put the same parts on with the same settings and set an identical lap time!!

 

As for the camber setting, once again it needs to be set taking into account the rest of the set up and geometry, or you could as most do and set it at the standard factory setting. However, the factory setting IS NOT the best setting if you have altered the factory spec suspension!! The caster can't "normally" be adjusted as it is fixed.

 

Finally, something that very rarely gets mentioned is the tyre pressures. Have you checked these and what pressures are you running?

[g0ldf1ng3r 14]

 

Finally, something that very rarely gets mentioned is the tyre pressures. Have you checked these and what pressures are you running?

 

Very good point raised DriverVR6 - ive noticed that my mpg can go down by around 3-4 mpg on the trip MFA if my tires are several PSI off what they should be

[DriverVR6 11]

gOldf1ng3r, yes you're absolutely correct the mpg will be affected if the tyre pressures are lower than factory spec.

 

In respect to the handling of the car, increasing and decreasing the pressures will also have a dramatic affect on the balance of the car.

[sleeper16 0]

sleeper16, what I would have done is check the condition of the existing components to try to establish why it did not handle as well as you say it used to. By changing everything you are introducing loads of variables into the equation. Every part you put on needs to work in harmony together. Just throwing on a set of "random" coilovers, then some bushes, anti roll bar, etc will not work. If it was that easy then every race team would just put the same parts on with the same settings and set an identical lap time!!

 

As for the camber setting, once again it needs to be set taking into account the rest of the set up and geometry, or you could as most do and set it at the standard factory setting. However, the factory setting IS NOT the best setting if you have altered the factory spec suspension!! The caster can't "normally" be adjusted as it is fixed.

 

Finally, something that very rarely gets mentioned is the tyre pressures. Have you checked these and what pressures are you running?

 

Thanks for the reply,

 

I had checked everything and there’s nothing obvious wrong rear wheel bearing being the only issue. I have not yet changed anything other than the coilovers with top mounts. The other parts are on the plan regardless of if they are at fault or not to improve the handling capabilities. I have looked into which bushes to fit where etc and have even tried it first hand on my old car and I believe I know the right combination for the outcome I would like.

 

Anti roll bar I have not tried first hand but have read on here that the eibach rear antiroll bar is a worthwhile upgrade so I got one just need the mounts etc I will try it once I have the issues sorted and if it improves it will stay if not then I will obviously try to determine why and adapt or remove as necessary.

 

I understand what you are saying with regards to the camber which is my main question, as what have people with similar set ups found best. I completely agree the standard spec is not always the best; it’s set up as a compromise between road holding and tyre wear etc. I have no concerns with tyre wear I would much rather it stuck to the road well.

 

I also know caster is fixed I just put that as it’s a general description of the elements I was wanting to look into, probably should of left it out. Any info on toe angle?

 

Tyres definitely aren’t the issue I had looked at this and made adjustments I have also changed the wheels and tyres since then and it has made no difference.

 

Bearing in mind this issue has been with the car for approx a year and a half I’m fairly confident in saying that it is an issue with something along lines of wheel alignment/bearing/bush. I was starting to believe that the wishbone could be bent or something but there’s no reason for it to be and when I have measured it, they’re identical so doubt both would be bent exactly the same.

 

My initial plan was to change the front wishbone bushes and ball joints then get wheel alignment done see if that solves it. If not then progress onto the rear axle bushes and bearings and see if that solves it, after that I’m not sure.

 

 

I honestly cannot explain howmuch of a different car it is. I now hold up horrible little cars that shouldnt have a chance of keeping up.

[Jim Bowen 1]

Sounds like mine. Drives crap. Especially trying to put foot down. Just all over the place.

 

I've now replaced everything but rack and column all the bushes are new. Had it setup twice at two different garages and still seems wrong to me. Maybe it is just the roads but I remember driving it faster in the past and with more confidence.

 

Am about to take it to a 3rd garage that seems to be a lot more of motor sport professional racing type place rather than the normal sort of garage.

 

Will be my last attempt before I give up and buy a different car. :(

 

Thats if I can get it to start lol. Always something.

[VR6 0]

Might be overstating the obvious but what suspension was originally on there and what have you replaced it with??

[DriverVR6 11]

Camber - For my VR6 I'll see if I can find the printout of my settings and post on here. They were pretty close to factory spec but with slightly more negative, but I can't remember the figure off the top of my head. Toe was as per factory spec (front wheels parallel when stationary).

 

As you say it is best to get the front wishbone bushes and ball joints done first before you get the alignment set. Do everything in pairs, left and right. Check for play in the steering rack and the steering rod ends while you are down there.

 

Has the rear beam ever been removed together with the chassis brackets/mounts?

 

If anything is bent on your car then any GOOD wheel alignment place with the correct gear will be able to spot that. However, there are a lot of Garages out there that don't even know how to use the alignment equipment they have so it can't be guaranteed they always will !!

Edited January 29, 2013 by DriverVR6

[DriverVR6 11]

Sleeper16, here are the printout figs for mine;

 

Camber -1.75 Left and Right

Castor as per factory spec which is 3.25

Partial toe Left and Right should be 0.0mm so wheels should be parallel stationary, and the tolerance is -0.6mm to +0.6mm.

 

As for figures for rear axle, they should be within tolerance when they put it on the alignment equipment. If that is not the case, then something is either bent, worn or has not been refitted correctly.

 

Mine handles fine, no twitchiness, tramlining, bouncing, etc. It has very subtle suspension mods and against popular opinion it has Powerflex bushes throughout including the rear beam.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited January 30, 2013 by DriverVR6

[sleeper16 0]

Camber - For my VR6 I'll see if I can find the printout of my settings and post on here. They were pretty close to factory spec but with slightly more negative, but I can't remember the figure off the top of my head. Toe was as per factory spec (front wheels parallel when stationary).

 

Smashing cheers is your on factory struts?

 

As you say it is best to get the front wishbone bushes and ball joints done first before you get the alignment set. Do everything in pairs, left and right. Check for play in the steering rack and the steering rod ends while you are down there.

 

Always do pairs anyway, meant to say i would be replacing track rod ends also. I will check the rack for play I think i have allready done this sometime ago but will check again.

 

Has the rear beam ever been removed together with the chassis brackets/mounts?

 

which chassis brackets/mounts? the rear beam has never been out while i have owned the car the previous owner did do the bushes im told.

 

If anything is bent on your car then any GOOD wheel alignment place with the correct gear will be able to spot that. However, there are a lot of Garages out there that don't even know how to use the alignment equipment they have so it can't be guaranteed they always will !!

 

Yeah theres only one place in town i trust and its a proper place like, not one of these quick fit or small one man garages that you can never be sure about. got a few mates with garages so i get to know the best places.

 

I dont think anything is bent as ive never hit anything or gone over a pothole etc that i thought was excessive, the odd jump here and there but nothing huge. but as i couldnt see anything else wrong it led me down that road of thinking the wishbones been bent.

 

Cheers for the advice

 

---------- Post added at 7:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 7:09 PM ----------

 

Might be overstating the obvious but what suspension was originally on there and what have you replaced it with??

 

the original was std i think, billstien dampers standard springs i believe. replaced with basic coilovers as the one of the dampers had rotted a hole in the spring seat. but the handeling went bad long before the suspension changes. i only changed them just before xmas and the handeling went bad about a year and a half ago.

 

---------- Post added at 7:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 7:12 PM ----------

 

Sleeper16, here are the printout figs for mine;

 

Camber -1.75 Left and Right

Castor as per factory spec which is 3.25

Partial toe Left and Right should be 0.0mm so wheels should be parallel stationary, and the tolerance is -0.6mm to +0.6mm.

 

As for figures for rear axle, they should be within tolerance when they put it on the alignment equipment. If that is not the case, then something is either bent, worn or has not been refitted correctly.

 

Mine handles fine, no twitchiness, tramlining, bouncing, etc. It has very subtle suspension mods and against popular opinion it has Powerflex bushes throughout including the rear beam.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Smashing thanks yeah rear beam has no adjustment does it so that will be interesting to see. whats the subtle mods? mines on coilovers that range from -20 to -100 and they are at their highest setting. I plan to use just like you say powerflex through however with the mk4 rear wishbone bush.

[DriverVR6 11]

Subtle mods- nothing over the top just a good set of conventional strut Bilsteins and matching springs. Powerflex bushes throughout. Michelin Pilot Sport on the front and BF Goodrich Profiler's on the rears. Did all of the ball joints and steering rod ends at the same time as the rest of the suspension so I knew everything was as it should be. And it's been fine ever since.

[jamiehamy 0]

Sounds like mine. Drives crap. Especially trying to put foot down. Just all over the place.

 

I've now replaced everything but rack and column all the bushes are new. Had it setup twice at two different garages and still seems wrong to me. Maybe it is just the roads but I remember driving it faster in the past and with more confidence.

 

Am about to take it to a 3rd garage that seems to be a lot more of motor sport professional racing type place rather than the normal sort of garage.

 

Will be my last attempt before I give up and buy a different car. :(

 

Thats if I can get it to start lol. Always something.

 

What tyres are your running Jim?

 

I bought a wee (Sealey I think) camber gauge to help me get the camber back in line after i've worked on it. It's a footer, but you can get there with some patience. I also do the tracking using the axle stands, rod and string. It's a REAL footer, but it's doable if you have an afternoon.

 

Might help save you a bit of cash and have a go yourself to play about with various settings? Kev Bacon has said it before and he's right - it's got to be spot on with the VR or it's a pile of dung (well, he didn't say dung, I did). I used to hate my handling until I got it sorted. I did the camber and tracking myself and then took it in to have the tracking fine tuned.

[Jim Bowen 1]

At the moment I have winter tyres on the front and something else on the rear. But it feels more mechanical than tyres.

 

About to take the winters off. Although when I had the 4 wheel alignment done I took the winters off

[timthetinyhorse 0]

what coilovers have you put on?

 

my old 16v was a total dog on discount FK Street coilovers and i mean a complete dog!

 

My VR6 has FK konigsport coilovers fitted with eiback front and rear ARB and its amazing, inspires confidence in corners and the ride is almost as good as stock most likley due to the adjustable dampers.

[sleeper16 0]

ok i think i may have found an issue. The passenger side front wheel is 10mm further forward than the drivers side. I have meassured from lip to lip of the wheels and its physically visable when looking at the car.

 

What could cause this without the wishbone being bent? how much adjustment does the subframe have?

 

Cheers

[timthetinyhorse 0]

severely worn wishbone bushes?? can you rock the wheel back and forward?

[Jim Bowen 1]

Yes, try holding top of wheel and rolling it back and forth, thats how i notice wishbone bushes

[sleeper16 0]

no movement in the bushes. iv even had prybar in behind the wish bone and tried to move it, its pretty solid. these will be getting replaced anyway with powerflex im just really concerned the chassis may be out if its had a bit of a bump or something in the past. if its just a case of the only other things causing the wheel alignment issue being wishbones then i will try shifting the subframe towards the back of the car on the passenger side make sure its lined up in relation to the rear axel. then i have a good starting point. just not so sure there will be enough to move the wheel 10mm.

[Abdul 0]

what coilovers have you put on?

 

my old 16v was a total dog on discount FK Street coilovers and i mean a complete dog!

 

My VR6 has FK konigsport coilovers fitted with eiback front and rear ARB and its amazing, inspires confidence in corners and the ride is almost as good as stock most likley due to the adjustable dampers.

 

Same here.

 

My first 16v had weitec's and to date is by far the best handling car I've owned.

 

Second one was on ebay coilys and it was beyond terrible in every aspect.

 

Both my old VR's had FK Konigsports and they're just brilliant for road use imo.

 

My first 16v had the same problem with the wheels poking an uneven amount, nothing I changed sorted it. Wishbone bushes were fine!

[sleeper16 0]

Same here.

 

My first 16v had weitec's and to date is by far the best handling car I've owned.

 

Second one was on ebay coilys and it was beyond terrible in every aspect.

 

Both my old VR's had FK Konigsports and they're just brilliant for road use imo.

 

My first 16v had the same problem with the wheels poking an uneven amount, nothing I changed sorted it. Wishbone bushes were fine!

 

 

 

do you mean one wheel stuck out the arch more than the otherlike it had a wheel spacer on?

 

Mine are equal in that respect but passenger side is 10mm closer to the front bumper.

 

what did you try to sort your alignment issue out?

 

Cheers

[DriverVR6 11]

sleeper16, I've dropped you a pm.