The Forced Induction VR6 thread

[dukest 0]

Glad to hear you got out of there in the end Shaun! Good figures too and if that last step will help get the map sorted then it looks like theres light at the end of the tunnel! Hope you can still afford to eat more than baked beans though! :D

[StormchargedVR6 0]

Glad to hear you got out of there in the end Shaun! Good figures too and if that last step will help get the map sorted then it looks like theres light at the end of the tunnel! Hope you can still afford to eat more than baked beans though! :D

Cheers john, one hell of a weekend. Hope to get polishing tomorrow :lol:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

some guys run black top injectors from saabs or something and they can be got hold of pretty cheap. Does anyone else know much about these?

 

Yes I have a set of those if you want them. 359cc. Good for ~ 450hp.

 

I would personally use those or something similar in flow rate because I gaurantee you won't stick to 8psi for long :-)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Nice one Shaun! Those figures are pretty much spot on for a Vortech running 12psi.

 

The torque will be a little higher than that on the road due to the cold air on your prerad!

 

The DTA S80 is a good move. Roverdose on the DTA forum can do them for £880. http://www.http://dtaforum.psycode.com/ They're normally £900+VAT IIRC.

 

I would also get the Innovate LC-1 + XD16 Wideband kit as it's essential for tuning and the DTA works well with it. A good digital boost guage is recommended too, such as this one - http://www.turbobits.co.uk/acatalog/digital_turbo_boost_pressure_gauge.html

 

With the DTA you can lose the stupid MAF and stalling will be resigned to the history books, plus you can dial in a lot of ignition advance off boost to help restore the responsiveness you had with your 10:1 compression and Schrick mani. Mine is 8.5:1 CR and off boost it's as responsive as a stock VR. I think it's making 200lbs torque at 2000rpm IIRC. BY 3000rpm it's over 320lb/ft.....but that's turbos for you :lol:

[StormchargedVR6 0]

Cheers kev, will be going DTA by end of year. Got few bits to do, but heres quick pic.SRI Fitted.JPG[/attachment:5ea90]

[CrazyDave 0]

Stormcharged, some rather healthy dyno figures then! And looking as shiney as ever. :)

 

Well after what seems like a rather long time, I'm getting to the bottom of my rather sorry power problems.

 

A bit of everything really!

 

Charge air getting to hot, not enough air flow through the pre-rad (sorted with ducting / opening the front grill up and now 20 degrees lower!)

 

Getting an intermittant misfire. The leads I had are the usual Beru standard VR ones (not great), so I fitted a set of 11mm performance leads (from DubPower). Spark was much stronger but still suffering a misfire. So after checking the MegaSquirt trigger signals with a scope and checking each lead with a strobe, it looks like I have a dicky coil pack. No.3 drops out every now and again. No.5 drops out lots when hot. Very strange, but it's most definately the cause.

 

Set of MSD coils now on order to finally get everything sorted. But I will have to sort out a bracket to mount the new coilpacks as I don't think I have enough room in the normal location, charge cooler in the way.

 

Looking forward to being scared silly when I have all 6 cylinders working together :shock:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Nice one Shaun, engine is looking superb!

 

Since fitting the [more accurate than VR6] 1.8T sender, I have a different charge air problem.....the intake air is too cold! The engine pulls harder and is smoother with the pump switched off, so I might rig up a thermistor controlled relay to engage the pump only when IATs hit a certain temp, say 40 degs. I'm struggling to find the ideal burn mix to make use of the cold charge, so for now I'm manually switching the pump on/off when needed.

 

That dynotune digital boost gauge listed earlier is on order. When that arrives I can finally do an open loop PWM boost control map using the MK4 GTI turbo valve. The analogue gauge I have is useless for tuning!

 

Good move on the MSDs. You should notice a few improvements with those, most noticably a better idle and a harder kick on boost.

[KADVR6 0]

right one for you guys with more brains than me :lol: how would you say this standalone would cope with a charged vr6, it seems to have all functions i/we all need. plus at £990 supplied/fitted and mapped. it sound very promising?????

 

http://www.jam-sport.co.uk/gotechmfipro.asp

 

karl

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are only so many ways you can control sparks and fuel, so that one would appear to be as good as anything else 8)

 

The only thing that seperates standalones is the user interface and feature set (most of which you won't need). The core hardware essentials aren't much different from one box to another.

 

As for "supplied and fitted". Be sure that is exactly what they mean because the loom would appear to be plug and play ford. VWs are very different. Takes a good 5 - 6 hours to install a ready made VR6 loom with the ELSA wiring diagrams in front of you. I can't see them bundling all that labour in with the ECU personally.....but you never know....

[KADVR6 0]

ok cheers kev (as allways) :) so would the lower spec kit http://www.jam-sport.co.uk/gotechmfi.asp be ok then?? as this is only £720 supplied/fitted and mapped.

 

sorry for the stupid questions, but only want to it once.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah it seems to have all the key ingredients and an unterminated loom, which is good.

 

It will be a bit of a leap of faith for you though because unlike the DTA, Squirt, Emerald etc, it's not extensively used in the VW community and therefore support and advice may be limited.

[marcus 0]

Where do you prefer to sit the lil' boost controller - centre console? glove box?

Im thinking just above the fusebox or maybe even mounted up on the headlining near the sunroof button? but i have no idead how often im going to need to look at it? :?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

What kind of boost controller is it? If it's one with a display, it'll be an idea to put it in your line of sight!

 

My EGT gauge is in front of the main clocks and Boost and AF guages are in the centre console...

[marcus 0]

Tis a Blitz Spec -R digital controller,

Only other gauge i have is boost.

[marcus 0]

A couple of progress pics taken today of the installation.

[CrazyDave 0]

No software demo to download and look at then?

 

It's the software that makes or breaks this kit. How does it do boost compensation. Is it TPS load site or MAP or both, or is it speed density like Megasquirt.

 

Sorry for the tech stuff Karl, but the website doesn't seem to have much info on how the ECU works and without a software download (demo or something) its hard to say yes or no.

 

Have a look at http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_ab_em.html. Nice kit, software demo to have a play with, good explanation of the kind of things modern engines need controlling. Good prices aswell. And final setup on Dave Walkers rollers, worth it's weight.

 

If you want a hand fitting something like this, give me a shout, be glad to help out. Should keep the cost down.

 

So many others to consider, Megasquirt is cheap and works but needs a lot of electronics messing about to get right. It doesn't do sequential injection (so no trimming of fuel to the far cylinders or very fine fuel contol). DTA is superb, I was very impressed when I saw Kev's. Good software, easy to use, and top spec hardware. VEMS is another one that looks good, about £400 ish, but you'd have to find someone to RR the final setup who knows the software.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Looking great Marcus 8)

I like the way the turbo sits nice and low, which should help cool it via the car's airflow underneath. Might be worth fitting a turbo jacket though in case the turbine gets splashed with cold water. That's just my cautious side and totally optional :D

 

Did you get that BEGI fuel riser with the kit? They work exceptionally well. I was very impressed with mine.

Sorry, I know nothing about your boost controller so can't advise on that.

 

Dave, I agree, the user interface / software is the key to it.

Cheers on the DTA comments. I was daunted by it at first because unlike the Emerald, it assumes you are an engine tuner by trade and as such, the descriptions in the software are extremely techy, but once you've taught yourself what does what, you'll find the software to be very easy to use and intuitive. In terms of physical and electrical robustness, the P8 is very tough indeed. The S series is even better.

 

I would also say that people more keen on plug and play 'turn key' installs, a standalone is perhaps not for them as they are an ongoing process and a slip of the mouse in the wrong software area can destroy an engine very quickly. I did that myself recently. I accidentally switched on the Distributor controller because my stupid laptop has the touch pad right below the main buttons etc, and both work at the same time, so I didn't realise my thumb had toggled a setting below the one I was working on. The result was awful. It ran on 4 cylinders and those 4 cylinders had totally incorrect timing to boot. The engine physically wouldn't go any faster than 40mph and was rough as hell.....had no choice....was stuck and had to drive it the 30 miles home. It took me ages to find that little slip up.....but the engine survived it, thank god!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Whilst I'm on, a few minor updates on mine:-

 

1) MSDs have been canned. One of them blew after 4000 miles, so I can't endorse that mod I'm afraid :( If anyone else tries it (Dave) let me know how it goes as I want to revisit that again at some point.

The good news is I've found a good alternative. Stock Pack + Brisk D12S silver plugs, heat grade 8. To be honest, this combo has so far shown the same results as the MSD conversion i.e. better idle, smoother low rpm pickup and a kick arse boost hit. I like :lol:

 

2) Based on Dave's findings, I also fitted a late 1.8T air temp sensor and as he also found, it's far, far superior to the VR6 one and my air temp compensation map now works as it should. i.e. faster!

 

3) Not sure sure if I've mentioned it already, but Bill Schimmel has done me a big valve head. 1mm over size Ferrea valves (Inconel exhaust, stainless intake), titanium retainers, heavy duty springs, 3 angle plunge cut valves and seats, port matched intake and exhaust. Should be interesting. He doesn't normally recommend BV heads unless there's a minimum of 83mm bore, which I have got, so makes sense to increase the head flow to mirror the increase in bore. The price for that is impossible to match in the UK, or even come close to it. I'll keep you posted. The aim is to get more oomph with the boost I've got, rather than turning it up! The other aim was the inconel exhaust valves, which can take more of a pounding than the stock items.

 

Bill took one of his cars to the Waterfest show and it pulled a 9.7 @ 147mph. He commented that was 'only' 620whp but is now working on getting it down to 8 seconds, which will be a world first for a FWD VW. The guy is a nutter!!

[Toad 0]

Whilst I'm on, a few minor updates on mine:-

 

1) MSDs have been canned. One of them blew after 4000 miles

 

Oh dear... That's a shame... Do you think you just got a dodgy unit?

 

 

3) Not sure sure if I've mentioned it already, but Bill Schimmel has done me a big valve head. 1mm over size Ferrea valves (Inconel exhaust, stainless intake),

 

On a related note, inconel alloys are a pretty interesting bunch. I studied one of the grades when I was doing my final year project at uni. If you deformed it while heating it it would dynamically recrystallise, that is to say normal steels work harden due to stresses building up inside the 'grains' the steel is made of. Inconels don't. They are used in turbine blades and rotors. I don't remember much more than that... Sadly.

[marcus 0]

Thanks Kev!

 

I remember your post a while ago about turbo jackets...probably will get one in a few weeks, i agree they're a good idea.

 

Unsure which 'brand' fuel regulator i have (i'll find out) but its adjustable. The pump is also uprated.

Just waiting for the injectors to get back from being sonically cleaned and tested, then i can collect it. :D

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Toad, not sure on the MSD tbh, but I read about others going the same way on the Vortex so wasn't entirely surprised by it. I personally think it's a brand issue. The concept is entirely laudable, but for some reason the MSD brand coils are a bit fickle. There are other brands of high power coils and even Ford's Zetec and Duratec coils are known to be very strong, so I'll have another attempt at it in the future.

 

Interesting info on Inconel, cheers. I know nothing about it other than it can take a lot of heat, which i thought is good news for exhaust valves, especially in a turbo engine. I'm sure the inconel alloy Ferrea have selected for their valves is OK to use in engines, but that's a good heads up though 8)

 

Speaking of valves, I note in Dave's picture further back his manifold is coated with oil and fuel vapours internally (as is mine). It would be nice to get rid of valve reversion and these guys claim to do just that, aswell as boosting bottom end torque significantly - http://www.omnivalves.com The theory is sound, but the practice.....not sure as they look damn heavy!

 

Marcus, that's the BEGI for sure mate, looks identical to mine. You'll have no problems with that.

 

As for the jacket, I recommend one from http://www.owendevelopments.co.uk as they're well priced, made well and work!

 

Get ready for a shock when you gas that pedal mate.....if you've not been in anything quicker than a standardish VR6 before, you will be quite surprised :lol:

[marcus 0]

Will have to wait till i have a spare £100.00 to spend on a lil luxury extra like that jacket :)

So its a BEGI...now i know LOL.

 

I know its going to be a shock Kev :lol: , been out in Lambo's, Porsche turbos, ferraris etc but obviously not mine LOL, but I'll be having 4 settings on the boost controller, between 280ish and 400bhp :D , so ill have time to get used to the power. :lol:

 

Where abouts in the front have you all squeezed in your Front mount intercoolers??

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Haven't got a front mount intercooler :-)

 

I do have a prerad for the chargecooler though, which is behind the lower bumper slats.

[herisites 0]

I got my charger today! YAY!! :D Its a beautiful thing! Cant wait to get it all fitted and running :twisted:

 

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Christ that thing looks exactly like a turbo!

 

That's one hefty oil cooler for it too. Nice job my man 8)