VR6: Sudden death but I've got a spark/fuel

[emax 0]

My car has just died and I'm looking for pointers of things to check.

 

I was up North with a friend doing some walking and the car had been

running great. Then, all of a sudden on a B road, the engine just died.

 

It was extremely sudden, it didn't go through a phase of misfiring or

anything, just died immediately as I was driving along.

 

Tried to restart and there was absolutely no sign of life as the starter

turned so called out the AA.

 

After about 30 mins, I tried again and it started, ran roughly, and died

within 2 secs.

 

When the AA guy arrived, he checked plug #1 to see if it was oiled up as

he thought it was overfuelling (hmmm). Plug was dry and sparking, so no

problem there.

 

He then pulled the fuel line and fuel went pouring over the engine (!!)

so we seem to have fuel too.

 

I've had the car towed down to a friend's driveway in Kirkcaldy which is

near Star Performance so that it'd be easier to tow it in if I can't

sort it myself.

 

Star are shut until the 5th so I'm going to see if I can diagnose the

problem myself before then and if I have no luck, I'll give up and let

them have a look.

 

VAG-COM showed no relevant faults (a couple relating to the Lambda).

 

Like I said, the car had been running well with no signs of problems and

it died very suddenly.

 

There were no nasty noises or anything. Temps were all normal before

death and the car still has all its oil/coolant!

 

I was given some advice to check Relay 109 which I did by checking for a voltage between the red/blue wire on the MAF (apparently, this also feeds the injectors) and the engine block with the igntion on stage 2. I got 12v

 

Any other ideas/suggestions/theories are very much appreciated.

[Supercharged 2]

Crank sensor?

 

Also check king lead if it's an early VR?

[emax 0]

Thanks Supercharged. I was told that it couldn't be the crank sensor as that would stop the spark too.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Didn't Roddy's VR just suddenly cut out like that when his fuel pump died?

 

If there's a spark when you turn it over, that outrules the crank sensor.

 

What age is the VR, does it have a factory immobiliser?

[emax 0]

Hi Kev,

 

Pretty sure it isn't the fuel pump as the injector rail did seem to be pressurised. When the AA man removed the fuel line, fuel went pissing everywhere!

 

Besides, I'm pretty sure I can still hear the pump prime when I put the ignition to stage 2.

 

The car is now fitted with a Toad immobiliser. If it was the immobiliser, would that not stop the spark too??

 

The car is a '94 coil pack model.

 

Thanks.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I dunno, I was just going by what Roddy experienced. His just cut at a junction I think and wouldn't start again.

 

I was thinking perhaps your pump might have just failed (they do just stop instantly when not happy) and when you restarted it the fuel pressure was just a dribble, causing the shut off soon after. There may have been residual pressure in the rail when the AA man checked it as there is a reed type non-return valve in the pump.

 

Dunno, just guessing! :-)

 

As you have spark and fuel, it's going to be tough to diagnose! Maybe the fuel side of the aftermarket immobiliser is faulty? I've had that happen to me in the past.

[emax 0]

I guess the next thing is to check to see if fuel is actually getting into the piston? I don't have a plug lead removal tool so I'll need to try to source one of them from VAG first.

 

Plug 1 did look very dry when the AA removed it (which is normally a good sign on a VR engine!!)

 

Thanks

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah that's a good sign for bore health!

 

I'd say if it contiunally cranks over and there's a spark but won't fire, it has to be the pump or your immobiliser is dead/dying.

 

Might be worth checking the fuel pump relay too as they sometimes burn out. If you remove the fuse cover section of the lower dash, the pump relay is the bottom right one adjacent to the bonnet handle.

 

Take it apart and clean off any carbon scoring, then try again, you never know!

 

Good luck.

[emax 0]

Thanks Kev. I'll be going back out to the car tomorrow so I'll try cleaning the relay just in case that solves it!

 

Cheers.

[fla 9]

Try cleaning the relay spade connectors - use contact cleaner rather than WD40. Reseat the relays a few times to clean up the fuse panel connections. 109 is for the ECU, 167 is for the fuel pump.

[vr6storm 0]

mine just died at a round-a-bout a few years back and it turned out to be the fuel pump..............but a few months later it also cut out after parking up, this turned out to be a fuse under the driver side dash panel the relays and other fuses also turned out to be loose in their positions(same location)

[Tom B 0]

The car should spark even if the crank sensor is knackered.

 

My crank sensor just went on my missus's 106 and that still had spark.

[Supercharged 2]

My crank sensor just went on my missus's 106 and that still had spark.

 

We're talking VR6's tho, not 106's :lol:

[Tom B 0]

OK then, just trying to help!

[emax 0]

Thanks for all the help guys, very much appreciated. I have got the Injectors firing using the VAG-COM tests so I know that it isn't a wiring problem there.

 

Going to go to the car just now (via Halfords to pick up some contact cleaner) to clean the relays to see if that solves it.

 

Failing that, I'll check the voltage on the fuel pump itself (although I can hear it prime when I turn on the ignition).

[emax 0]

Update: It was dark when I got to the car and I had no torch on me (had to use the mobile!).

 

I cleaned relay 109 but couldn't see a 167 in the fuse box anywhere? I can't find the owner's manual to check the correct positions for the relays but I noticed that there were several 53 relays (could these have been substitutions for other relays)?

 

Two of these 53's were side-by-side underneath relay 18. The third seemed to be plugged into something above the main relay board. I also noticed a blue connector that wasn't connected to anything hanging from above the main relay board??

 

I cleaned the pins on the 109 and all the 53 relays and tried to restart the car.

 

First turn of the starter and the car spluttered as if it was trying to start but after that, it was completely dead.

 

Too dark to double-check the fuel pump itself. How do I get access to this (or its connector to check for voltage). In the boot somewhere?

 

Any more suggestions are greatly appreciated!

[RW1 0]

Here we go. Two view of a 1995 VR6 Fuse/Relay Panel. (Ignore the two Siemens relays, they are not standard.)

 

Fuel Pump: Lift back right hand side of carpet and remove the black round panel. All will be revealed.

 

Use my other notes off the Corrado Egroup for pump wires at the connector.

 

If the blue connector is the one in the photo, it's not connectoed. About 6 or so are that way in the looms terminating at the panel.

 

Also, check the single connections on the back of the relay panel on the door pillar end, ones with heavy duty wires. Can come off sometimes.

 

.

[emax 0]

RW1,

 

Thanks very much for the pics. I _DEFINITELY_ don't have a 167 in the bottom-right slot! Can't remember what the number was on that relay though either.

 

I'll return to the car tomorrow and clean that relay and report what is actually in that slot. Looks like someone in the past as sustituted the 167 for something else.

 

Thanks for this, and the pointers as to where to find the fuel pump connectors, brilliant!

[RW1 0]

It may be 67 if earlier. Part number is like 191 906 383C (the "C" being different possibly). If different, post the part number up.

 

.

[emax 0]

Hi folks,

 

Well, I think I'm a bit further on with this now.

 

Firstly, I don't have a '167' relay. In its place, I have a relay with the number '80' on it. VAG part number: 191 906 383 (without the "C" or anything else).

 

I cleaned this up with the contact cleaner and repositioned it. Still no joy.

 

Pulled the cover for the fuel pump and checked the wiring (using a piece of unpainted bodywork where the screws for the cover go as the ground) and was only getting 0.02 volts.

 

The pump was completely silent as well.

 

I couldn't source a suitable length of wire to bridge the relay connectors in the fuse box but I took a voltage reading across them and was getting 12 volts there.

 

I take it that given these findings, I'm safe to conclude that it is the fuel pump relay?

 

Thanks to everyone for your help/suggestions so far, appreciated as always!!

[Supercharged 2]

If you've not changed them since you've owned the car i'd change both the fuel pump and ECU relays for peace of mind!

[bcstudent 0]

So when the AA guy checked for fuel at the rail did he turn the ignition on to prove that the pump was supplying fuel, or did he just pull the pipe off?

[emax 0]

So when the AA guy checked for fuel at the rail did he turn the ignition on to prove that the pump was supplying fuel, or did he just pull the pipe off?

 

He just pulled the pipe off. I guess there could have been a small amount of pressure left over which could have been just enough to send some fuel out of the pump??

[bcstudent 0]

I'm very surprised he didn't actually check that the pump was delivering fuel under pressure.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Emax the pump relay isn't always numbered 167, but the relay where 167 is on RW1's photo is defo your pump relay.

 

I'd replace that first as it's only about £15. If not that, then it's the pump.