Probs with Rado engine swap

[Dee-Vub 0]

Hi guys, right....well just when i got my corrado, he bottom end went on it so i immediately set about lookin for a replacement to put in while this one was being rebuilt. Thing is, i was led to believe the OBD2 engine would drop straight in and run perfectly fine, i found a good deal where i got a 2.8 VR engine from a 98 golf with only 48k on it. So i went for it with the low mileage being peice of mind!

 

The guy putting the engine in has it in but when the engines timing is at TDC it will fail to start, but when the timing is advanced, it kicks into action no bother at all, but obviously has a complete lack of power due to the timing being out.

 

So he reckons its either compression of the pistons or something to do with the ECU...any you guys got any theories cos its really starting to get quite depressing!

 

Feel like i should just go and shell out for another corrado engine instead! Really wish i had stuck to just going for the 2.9!!

 

Is there any way, that its not reading from the ECU? Compression? I'm not very engine adept, someone mentioned it could be the coil? Any ideas??

 

And if anyone has a good running 2.9 VR engine and would like to swap for a 48k 2.8, get in touch.

 

Cheers, phil

 

BTW, its all original 2.9 peices, all OBD1 apart from the fact its a 2.8 engine

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

That engine should fire up just like normal no matter if its a 2.8 or 2.9 so either you have something wrong with the engine or the mechanic who is doing it has left something off or it has a wiring fault that has been disturbed when refitting the engine.

 

Has the engine been apart? did you hear it running and have proof of guaranteed mileage ect.,if the cams are lined up with the bottom end and compression is good it will run.

 

How are you able to adjust the timing as its fixed? the engine will have difficulty starting on TDC as will most engines it needs to be BTDC but its pre set anyway...

 

 

Is the mechanic knowledgeable with VR engines or any? as guessing with the CR or ECU is just well ...guessing!,why would the coil be at fault but it runs with timing tweek?.... have you checked for fault codes?

 

I suspect the mechanic will have to have swapped over the cams and covers to convert form OBD2 to dizy(im presuming this as he was able to mess with the timing?) and have fitted the cams or something else incorrectly...

[Dee-Vub 0]

At last, a proper answer!!

 

The head gasket was done, apart from that thats about it apart from the engine being apart. Oh and new 2.8 chains were put in.

 

The engine came from storm developments, so i was strongly hoping they would be a pretty reliable source.

 

He just wanted to check the timing to eliminate, but it was checked and at the correct setting.

 

The mechanic specialises in VW's....not VR's, but VW's in general and he really seems to know his stuff. Yeh, obviously not coil if even a timing tweak starts it. Fault codes, will get in touch with him to see if he has Vag-com to check, its hard keeping regular contact due to me bein offshore alot.

 

I'm fairly certain the covers were taken off the 2.9 and put onto the 2.8, as for cams, fairly certain these werent swapped over, original 2.8 cams are being used. I'm sure of it!

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

At last, a proper answer!!

 

The head gasket was done, apart from that thats about it apart from the engine being apart. Oh and new 2.8 chains were put in.

 

The engine came from storm developments, so i was strongly hoping they would be a pretty reliable source.

 

He just wanted to check the timing to eliminate, but it was checked and at the correct setting.

 

The mechanic specialises in VW's....not VR's, but VW's in general and he really seems to know his stuff. Yeh, obviously not coil if even a timing tweak starts it. Fault codes, will get in touch with him to see if he has Vag-com to check, its hard keeping regular contact due to me bein offshore alot.

 

I'm fairly certain the covers were taken off the 2.9 and put onto the 2.8, as for cams, fairly certain these werent swapped over, original 2.8 cams are being used. I'm sure of it!

 

So you are running dizzy? if so im certain you will have to fit the cam gear with lugs for dizzy to run,ive never had these off as they are a bastard to get the bolts undone,so either he has or just swapped the cams over or the pully,so i would double check the slots on the rear of the cams are ligned up with the face of the head and not 180 deg out.

 

As he is a VW specialist i would have thought he would have got this right,so check for codes and see what he says.

 

Hope you get it sorted mate.

[Dee-Vub 0]

Mate, i'm not entirely sure what set-up it is.....sorry if this sounds thick, but between the differing obd1 & obd2 set ups, is one dizzy and the other coil?? If so, what do i need to run to be compatible with the 2.8 engine but still run with the original obd1 rado 2.9 gear?

 

Cheers for the reply again dude, this is all stuff i can take to him to hopefully get it moved on a bit.

 

Someone over on Ed38 said that the timing sensors are different between the coil and dizzy? could this be having an effect bud?

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

The late OBD2 has electronic Throttle and runs the same sensors as the OBD1 raddo with coilpack,yours which i still am presuming runs a a distributor on the side on the head and a separate coil on the bulkhead? if so you will need to run the end cam plate to turn the distributor and the covers to attach the distributor.all this is self explanatory as he should be only using the parts he needs to build up your motor to run,so all he would need is the block complete and the head..that all.

 

the only sensor which he can use will be the block and knock sensors...that's all.the rest on the head will be removed to fit the distributor.

 

do you have a picture of the donor engine and yours?

[Dee-Vub 0]

Thanks buddy great help once again, i'll pass this onto to see if this has all been checked and if any of it is of use....i dont have a pic of the doner engine, but this is my one...well the 2.9

 

 

Can try get you a pic of the donor engine mate

[Dee-Vub 0]

Found out, my corrado was coilpack, along with the golf engine gone in, so doesnt look like that.

 

When the guy is adjusting the timing, he locked it half a tooth out and it kicks into action but obviously wont run properly......when timing is spot on, it wont even fire up.....just turns over and wants to! Tried various throttle positions with no added success.

 

Compression testing done....all was fine and within limits.

 

What we are reckoning is that maybe, due to using a 2.9 obd1 ecu with the 2.8 obd2 engine that the cam sensors are in a slightly different position to what they are on the 2.9? The ecu is getting a signal but since the positioning of the sensor is different, it wont kick into action. So now what? Whats best? A change of ECU to the golf 2.8? alter the cam sensor postion?

 

What you guys reckon??

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

I cant see why the sensor triggers would be different ...have you used all your sensors including the crank sensor?

 

I would if i was the mechanic doing the job(as this is my day job :lol:) put your original cams in,and all your original sensors in and retry it,something is a miss,get a timing light on there ,crank it over and look on the front crank pully to see where the timing is and rule that out first.

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

you need to confirm with your mechanic that he only used the block and head and no sensors......im getting mad.....need to drive up to you and fu*king fix this for you AAARRRRGGGHHHHH :lol:

[Dee-Vub 0]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

So you do reckon its the sensors....ok tell me what needs rectified then. Is it the fact it is the obd2 block, head and sensors? Do the senors differ on the 2.8 and the 2.9?

 

Just tell me what you'd do and i'd pass that on :)

 

Thanks buddy :)

[quicky1980 0]

I had a similar headache with a conversion.

 

OBDII (golf engines) will not work with corrado's. As far as I know you have 2 options, convert the car to obdII and have the benefits or convert to obdI and keep it standard.

 

Converting to obdII i would think needs a new loom from the engine to the fursebox and ecu. also will need a obdII ecu. this should be the easiest job but runs the risk of buying broken second hand or even new parts.

 

Converting to obdI you need swap over all your parts from your old engine. intake manifold, sensors, wires and possibly the cams (not sure if they are the same between the golf's and rado's) the benefit of this is that you know all the parts worked on the old engine and you have all the parts. disadavantage is its an older system

 

 

Just another note. buy VW parts not third party parts. I learnt the hard way that new parts from third party dealers may not work properly and will send you running in circles.

 

hope this helps

 

 

*************just looked up the obd2 conversions, it looks quite complicated so maybe best choice for you is to convert to obd1???. look it up viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58967&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=obd+2 ****************

[davidwort 0]

ABV and AAA engines don't have the same cams

 

and I've been through 3 pattern ecu temp sensors on my mk4 and I've still not got one that's giving quite the correct values to the ECU :roll:

[Dee-Vub 0]

Aw Great!!! So you cant use the obd2 engine with the original obd1 gear! Brilliant :(

 

I cant be bothered at the moment running obd2 cos it means having to gather parts and shortening and lenthgthening the loom etc etc!

 

So is this a case of fully converting over to obd2, or finding another corrado engine (or rebuild mines) and sticking with standard.

 

I just dont understand what massive differences there can be between the actual engines of the 2.8 and 2.9?

 

At the moment, the obd2 2.8 engine has its original cams and sensors etc....do i need to replace these from the 2.9 obd1 engine?

 

Surely there cant be a massive difference between the engines and its just a little prob holding it back?

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

Aw Great!!! So you cant use the obd2 engine with the original obd1 gear! Brilliant :(

 

 

YES YOU CAN !! just not the electrical side as its not compatible,so to summarise you have to use all your old parts and sensors ect with the New block and head.

 

Have you checked for fault codes?

[Dee-Vub 0]

God, i am getting a conflicting view on ed38.....

 

http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.p ... try1106311

 

This lad reckons since i am using a late 98 obd2 engine that i need a late 98 ecu to match, as the ecu numbers only correspond to certain engines :?

 

but i am more entitled to think it must be more straight forward than that! You reckon swapping over the 2.9 parts and basically just using the 2.8 block and head that this will solve it? Cams and sensors? anything else??

 

Sorry if your getting frustrated :? I'm just a 3rd party trying to pass on info :( frustrating myself also!

 

Thanks, phil

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

you would only use the ECU if you were to use the loom aswell and all your donar engine sensors,think about it,you have a head and block,no cams in,what are you left with? just the crank sensor and the crank sensor wheel on the crankshaft which as far as im beleved to be aware they are all the same.

 

So is the crank sensor your original one? can you take off the sump and count the teeth on the pick up wheel on the crank and compare it to the old crank? but i dont beleve this is the problem..

 

this is fustrating bud,as ive used all years of VR engines for swapes and used early sensors ect and it always worked.

 

Think you will find its not the engine but sensors incorect and will be while untill you find the fault and you will laugh or cry how simple it was.. :(

[Dee-Vub 0]

Ok thats fine then......well the original loom and ecu are being used, but the donar sensors are being used at the moment as they have not been changed on the 2.8 to the 2.9.

 

The crank sensor is the oriniginal sensor of the donar 2.8 engine....NOT the original sensor to the 2.9 rado engine.

 

yeh i dont reckon its the engine either....definitely electrical/sensor based.

 

If the sensors are incorrect, will this show up on vag-com? And basically prove the problem?

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

Hmm not sure bud,but I would try at least to find out,maybe the ecu wont recognise an updated sensor? I would use all your original sensor though than the donor engine sensors just in case there is a difference.

[quicky1980 0]

vag-com doesnt always throw up a faulty sensor. Just put everything off the old blown up engine onto thte new engine (ALL the sensors and manifold) then try it again.

[Dee-Vub 0]

Ok i'll pass that onto peter.

 

Thanks guys i'll see what he throws up...fingers crossed! :)

 

We put it on vag com and couldnt get a connection for some reason :S

 

 

Oh and james what you reckon to this???

 

http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.p ... 30596&st=0

 

Comment 19 and 20??

 

im very sure with the obd2 you need to use the full loom and ecu as well to make this work.they have different versions of software in the ecus.later ones run an updated motronic system.if its a late obd2 they only work with one ecu number and that ends with the numbers 256 and has no letters after it.these engines were produced from 96 onwards.

 

the posistion of the sensors are the same thats why both cams i.e sets from a 2.9 will fit a 2.8 only difference there is on the end of the cam gear it has a drive gear for the dissy and on the coilpack its a magnet that is picked up by the CPS very sure the number you want is 021 906 256 and no letters at the end for the ecu.ecu software systems

Look at the golf vr6 95 onwards its different to the corrado.hope this helps

 

 

Thats what a lad is saying on ed38? whats the story behind that?

 

Cheers buddy, phil

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

right...what he is saying is and so im i, is that to run OBD2 you will have to use the later management and ecu wiring ect...

 

Now you are not wanting to use the Later management,wiring or ecu...right? all you are wanting to do is to use the bare engine with no electrics...right?

 

So why would need to use the ECU...loom....or anything else as you are not going to run OBD2..You are going to continue to use your existing Management set up..OBD1 So you cant use any of the sensors that you got with the OBD2 Donor engine as they are not compatible.

 

the posistion of the sensors are the same thats why both cams i.e sets from a 2.9 will fit a 2.8 only difference there is on the end of the cam gear

 

I have already mentioned that bud.

 

Why will vagcom not communicate? is this a scanner fault or an electrical fault on the car side?