HELP VR DIED COMPLETELY

[muppetlab 0]

After a good couple of months without major problems the ole gal has died completely. Coasting up to roundabout, big backfire and engine just stopped. After a causing traffic chaos and finally pushing the heavy beast of a car safely out of the traffic it Wont restart, just cranks over. Have scaned for codes and all i get is the crank sensor but that might be because its not actually running. Can anyone tell me if:

1/ the red/yellow wire at the fuel pump connector should have voltage when just ignition switched on? Mine does not, if this is not correct which relay would be the fuel pump?

2/ scanning for codes will show a faulty relay

3/ anything i should check apart from if its getting fuel or a spark

4/If a dying crank sensor would cause intermitent stuttering under part throttle as if it is missing on a few cylinders?

 

thanks folks, any help appreciated. Dont want to be stuck in the work van for too long if i cant sort this out :D

[Reggit 0]

Bugger, hope it turns out to be something simple (and cheap)

 

Answers (that I know):

 

1. Don't know

2. No - it won't show a faulty relay

3. Check the cams are turning (as well as spark/fuel)

4. May do - mine developed a random misfire until I changed the sensor

[muppetlab 0]

Thanks, have checked fuel and its pressurising the fuel line i think so need to check for a spark and maybe test the crank sensor somehow. Fingers crossed as the wiring looks a nightmare behind the fuse box!! Might get a couple of realys as spares as they seem fairly cheap and could rule them out quickly. Cheers Jez

[muppetlab 0]

Anyone else care to offer any suggestions? Please help as i am beinging to look to the dark side (bmw) :cuckoo: if the old girl is not an easy fix.

[4eyes2wheels 0]

I had some similar symptoms 6 months ago where it started, then limped along for a bit then refused to go more than ten yards. Engine would rev like mad then die even with the foot planted to the floor. Diagnosis - crank position sensor. That sorted, it was good as new and the part was only about £30.

 

Good luck but surely a Beamer isn't too bad . . .

[muppetlab 0]

No had an old e30 that was nice and sorted, for fast road work and loved it, just dont want to get rid of the vr as i have spent so much time and money on getting it where it is. I am 90% on the crankshaft sensor as cant see owt else that could just stop the car so suddenly. May be coil but will check this before the crank sender. cheers Jez

[fla 9]

backfire doesnt sound good. Change teh ecu relay 109 which controls both the fuel and spark and see how you get on. I believe the crank sensor gradually loses its magnetism over time, so i wouldnt ahve though it would lead to misfiring. if the coilpack is faulty this could lead to losing cylinders - in the evening, turn the engine over (if it does :( _ and spray some water from a spray bottle over the coilpack. Its shouldnt spark, but if it does it needs to be repaired or replaced.

[muppetlab 0]

backfire doesnt sound good. Change teh ecu relay 109 which controls both the fuel and spark and see how you get on. I believe the crank sensor gradually loses its magnetism over time, so i wouldnt ahve though it would lead to misfiring. if the coilpack is faulty this could lead to losing cylinders - in the evening, turn the engine over (if it does :( _ and spray some water from a spray bottle over the coilpack. Its shouldnt spark, but if it does it needs to be repaired or replaced.

Thanks for the suggestions, to be honest the missing i think was more like a burned postion on the tps as it was only at a precise rpm and not always. This Back fire was just a one off and as it backfired it died completely. Will try the relays though as they are only cheap 109 and 67, plus get a crank sensor as chances are if it aint bust it probably will soon :roll:

Goin to get the garage to check the spark and fuel situation and play it by ear. I know from friends experience that paying garages to trace electrical faults gets very expensive, so would rather do that myself, armed with a multimeter and a couple of sensors, would only cost me maybe 2 hours of mechanics time for all the sensors and relays i need. cheers fingers crossed its the sensor or relay.......

[tandino 0]

Do a compression check, could be timing chain has slipped/snapped...

Have you rotated the crank pully whilst looking at the keyway for the camshaft position sender??

[muppetlab 0]

Do a compression check, could be timing chain has slipped/snapped...

Have you rotated the crank pully whilst looking at the keyway for the camshaft position sender??

 

Worried now as that sounds expensive to fix, maybe i should have checked the chains, always reading about them on here, hope its not though. Do i have to remove the camshaft postion sender? Is this with an obd1 engine? Hope its not that as it would be cheaper to swap a different engine me thinks. :(

[Roger Blassberg 0]

Just take the oil filler cap off and watch the camshaft as you turn it over on the starter to see if the chain has broken. If it turns the camshafts, the chains are intact, although the tensioner may have broken leading to a jumped tooth or more.

 

Coilpacks usually show their weakness in damp weather and gradually lose their insulation through cracks in the plastic top - most unlikely to be the cause of a sudden stop.

 

Best wishes

 

RB

[muppetlab 0]

Just take the oil filler cap off and watch the camshaft as you turn it over on the starter to see if the chain has broken. If it turns the camshafts, the chains are intact, although the tensioner may have broken leading to a jumped tooth or more.

 

Coilpacks usually show their weakness in damp weather and gradually lose their insulation through cracks in the plastic top - most unlikely to be the cause of a sudden stop.

 

Best wishes

 

RB

Thanks for all the suggestions. going to hopefully do some electrical tests tomorrow and try and see if i am getting fuel and spark first. If i have both then will investigate camshaft :shock:

[muppetlab 0]

Right this is getting to me now. Have checked the crank sensor and it shows a resistance of about 500, the injector nearest the air filter end has 12v across its 2 terminals with the ignition on, the fuel pump is pressurising the fuel lines and it cranks over okay. Changed the relays for the ecu and fuel pump anyway to rule them out but although i have 12v from the coil i am not sure if its good enough as i dont seem to be getting any sparks at the plugs. I also have a yellow wire from the multiplug on the engine which looks past its best but it seems to be making contact but does anyone know what it is. I really need to know if the crank sensor resistance is too low and what i else i can check to get the damn thing to spark at the plugs, oh and what the yellow wire at the multiplug does and which wires i can check at the maf to see if the ecu is working okay?? I know its a lot of asks but i am really stuck on this one. The only code i get when scanning is the speed sensor g28 but it would anyway if the engine is not running. :( :(

[muppetlab 0]

Have searched and searched on here and have found a post about checking pin 23 at the ecu plug. Can someone confirm if this should have 12v with the ignition on, as mine does not and if it should any possible causes. cheers Jez

[Roger Blassberg 0]

Have you checked that the timing chains are intact - are the camshafts rotating with the crankshaft? (see comments previously).

 

Distributor or coilpack? If distributor, does it rotate with the crankshaft? Is the rotor arm going round? It has been known for the keyway inside the rotor arm to shear off, the spindle rotates but the rotor arm slips.

 

Best wishes

 

RB

[muppetlab 0]

Thanks RB have checked the dizzy rotor and its going round, i just dont seem to get a spark though. Am on my own at the mo so difficult to check the cams but i am trying to rule out other electrical gremlins too as well. thanks for all your advice its appreciated. cheers jez

[Reggit 0]

Check the carbon brush under the dissy cap where the king lead fits, this should make contact with the centre of the rotor arm - it may have worn away, if it has you won't get a spark.

[muppetlab 0]

Okay so far i have worked out i have no spark to the plugs. Traced back and no spark from coil either i think. Anyone know how to test the coil. I put a multimeter on continuinty across the middle thiner input wire and get fluctuation on cranking which seems to indicate the ecu is triggering the coil?? How would i test the coil to see if its works?? Have tested the fuel pump with a jumper lead across the relay socket and it works okay, the ecu works okay with a jumper lead also so think i can rule them out maybe, but guess i need to test the triggers on the relays as well to make sure they are being switched but having jumper them they should have worked anyway right??

Update: Not sure if coil works but put meter across number 1 injector and have 12v at ignition on, when cranking this drops to 8-9v but does not ground out like i thought it should?? Should it drop to nearer zero?? thinking maybe with no spark and possibly no injector pulse its the crank sensor. Can anyone confirm the injector reads for me?? and wether the trigger wire for the coil when tested on continuity should just jump all over the place. The Only things i am certain of is that the fuel pump is getting enough power and the fuel is getting to the injector rail and i have no spark. So i need to find why there is no spark and why the injectors are possibly not firing. Sorry for the long post just kinda thinking out loud....

[Roger Blassberg 0]

If you have a fluctuating low voltage input to the coil and no high voltage output, the coil is duff (I assume you are shorting an HT lead of known continuity to earth to check for a spark.)

 

The "backfire" you heard could have been a bang from the coil as it blew - was there a burning insulation smell at all? I had that happen once on my Passat.

 

RB

[muppetlab 0]

If you have a fluctuating low voltage input to the coil and no high voltage output, the coil is duff (I assume you are shorting an HT lead of known continuity to earth to check for a spark.)

 

The "backfire" you heard could have been a bang from the coil as it blew - was there a burning insulation smell at all? I had that happen once on my Passat.

 

RB

 

Hi RB, no burning smell but i was out of the car pretty quick as it was on a roundabout approach and an ambulance was approaching with its blues and twos on, timing eh. I think i have a fluctuating continuity on the middle of the 3 wires that go into the coil. i take it this is the trigger wire from the ecu? Have tested the injectors again and there is constant continuity when cranking so that tells me at least that the injectors are not working i think and i have no spark at the HT leads or the King lead so it got to be either crank sensor or other electrical problem. Camshaft/hall sensor would not cause total shut down as far as i can work out, similarly coolant sensor would not cause total cut out as far as i know so what does that leave?? Dodgy imobiliser cutting in on the road? Dont they have to have some sort of fail safe?? Ecu blown up?? Thanks for all your help, i am just trying to work through things so i dont end up having to buy masses of expensive parts and finding its none of them. Mind you that still works out cheaper than taking it to a local garage to be charged £30 an hour etc.. cheers jez

[muppetlab 0]

Well RB seems you may have been onto something. After a nightmare i got hold of a new coil, fitted it and she fired straight up, bit rough but it goes. Seems to be down on power maybe a cylinder, going to get the dizzy cap and rotor replaced and new sparks and see how it goes. Only concern is there is major rattle from the top end or the chains maybe thats a bit worrying as it was not there before the incident :shock: Could be the timing chains have had it, or a stickt valve but it sounds like a pretty sick old car now. Still goes so its going to get driven now but think i am on borrowed time. Anyone any idea how easy/hard the chains are to do? Another search i feel....... Still i cant remember feeling as happy as when the old gal spluttered into life :D

[Roger Blassberg 0]

There is a very comprehensive step-by-step guide in the Knowledge Base to doing the chains, guides and tensioners. But it's an extensive job, and entails removing the gearbox so you need heavy lifting/supporting gear - one or two trolley jacks and a support beam - plus a comprehensive set of tools. The parts aren't cheap (2 chains, 2 guides, 2 tensioners, all the seals and gaskets you will want to replace whilst it's apart, a new clutch, and lots of Elastoplast for your knuckles).

 

Stealth, in Southam, will do the whole job if it is too daunting for you.

 

If the chain has jumped the sprockets there is every likelihood that the top tensioner blade has worn right down; I wouldn't drive it because it might jump again which could lead to valves hitting pistons; then you'll have a head rebuild to factor in to your woes.

 

Keep at it ! I have just finished the timing gear job on mine (I took my time, as the C is not my daily driver) and it now runs like a dream.

 

Best wishes

 

RB

[fla 9]

Muppetlab? Dont lose hope - yes the chains can be a daunting task, but if you fancy really learning about teh guts of your car, just get stuck in! As RB mentioned, there is a very good guide on the Wiki. Getting the chains and everything else done is quite expensive, but a relatively quick solution. D&G or Stealth are your best options, or G werks (Darren). If you do decide to do it, there are plenty of folk here who will help you along teh way. I did my chains, and sure it wasnt easy and i took a few months over it, plus had help from various people (RB and Zak) plus other who took phonecalls and supported me via pm.

 

But when its done your car will really run superbly!

[muppetlab 0]

Thansk guys for all the support and help. The noise has mostly gone and its back to normal rattly noises, think it must have been a sticky tappet from sitting for a couple of weeks. Had a search on here for the chains etc and to be honest i cant afford to not use the car as my daily and the cost of having the chains done somewhere else just isnt warranted given the engine has nr 200,000 mls on it, burns a bit of oil and has a gearbox that sounds like its dragging on the floor in 1st. If i was going to have it off the road for a couple of months i would swap an r32 engine in it and replacement gearbox rather than spend a whole lot on the old 12v. Going to do the plugs and dizzy cap and rotor and an oil change this weekend which will hopefully clear up the dead spot around 2000rpm, no codes coming up now at all which is good. Might whip the cover off the top and check on the condition of the top tensioner pad bit, not sure if i can change that without dropping the gearbox etc but will have a search on the forum. Parts are becoming impossible to get round my way from local factors for the vr6 and its now a case of gsf or eurocar parts or vw for all my bits which is annoying as i am very impatient when i want to do something!! Keep up the good work, i shall now be subscribing to the forum as its an invaluable resource as far as i am concerned with respect to keeping the corrado on the road and not broken into bits, but it was a close call this time. Oh and to the local garage who had the car for a week and when i asked for it back cus they had done nothing in 7 days replied "its nothing obvious". Well i would say no spark is pretty bloody obvious and one of the first things i would check, how difficult is it to trace it back to the coil. :roll:

Cheers Jez

[laneontour 0]

I have a very similar problem and am trying to get to the root of it. I have 500 ohms on the crank sensor - does that mean it is definitely working or could it still be faulty? I have no spark although I did have a few sparks first thing this morning (been broken for 3 days). Camshaft turning and turning over fine. Battery fully charged. I have 12V on pin 1 of the injectors. I think I can rule out the ECU can't I? Is it down to the crank sensor or the coil?

 

History - about 4 months ago I had some misfiring followed by same problem. I sprayed the air mass flow meter, changed the fuel filter and added a jet cleaner to the fuel and all worked fine again until now.

 

Alas I can no longer get my VAG-COM to work having the same problems as everyone else (depending on which laptop and windows platform I use changes the problem!)

 

I have an early 1994 VR6 so no keyfob chip. Could it be my old Thatcham immobolizer? If so, any ideas how to bypass it?

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Thanks