The Baconator's latest victim

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Cheers guys, so many kind words! So many thank yous back! :D

 

i think i still have the alternator from off my r32 lump, i will have a rummage for you if your intrested kev,

 

also i found your little pink tool in my box???

 

Cheers Karl, I'd defo be interested in that mate! Let me know how much etc :D

 

My little tool is still in your box? LOL!

 

With the mapping, if you were to do it again would you still go standalone or go for OEM remapped ecu's?

 

Absolutely mate, I love the freedom a standalone gives me :D

[PhatVR6 0]

Gotta love the dedication and determination throughout this build.

 

Sure there's more powerful vrt's around, but to have that spec level and still be able to use it daily has to be testament to the build quality and choice of parts used.

 

It's been a long journey, you must have done everything 3 times! But the sheer value of the research and development gone into the build then shared with the forum is second to none. Incredible.

[KipVR 1]

Just read through this thread- one of the most informative and interesting threads about.

 

Although I'm not really a massive turbo fan, I can fully appreciate all the engineering that goes into it, and would love to have a 400bhp Corrado!

 

So often see conversions that are unreliable simply because the 'that'll do' policy has been used, rather than making the best you can. It's good to see your car being developed to make it as good as it can be, and seeing some top engineering as a result. Hat off to you Kev 8)

[dan 0]

Amazimg :notworthy: and I thought I was fussy :lol:

Your car is truly OEM+

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Cheers guys, I appreciate the feedback :D

 

I think next on the agenda is to buy a welder and learn a new skill. Not being able to weld held me back on the turbo project a bit. I want to get the 02M gearbox in next, plus a few other jobs that need welding. I don't like being dependant on other people for stuff like that!

 

I shall of course document the O2M conversion :D

[20vturbo 0]

great car and great write up :salute:

 

putting a 02m in a corrado is a pain in the ass, the box is huge and then you have to make custom shafts but if you get the right code gearbox with the nice ratios its such a nice upgrade and will take alot of power before it breaks :D

[dan 0]

I think next on the agenda is to buy a welder and learn a new skill. Not being able to weld held me back on the turbo project a bit. I want to get the 02M gearbox in next, plus a few other jobs that need welding.

Thats Great... then you can make us all our exhausts for our turbo conversions :lol: in fact you could supply us with all the parts & the 'How to' is right here.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I guess the pain to balance the joy of running a VRT every day is more frequent maintenance! Some folk say I'm a glutton for punishment but I love it :lol: Gives me a chance to make some improvements and I learn a lot in the process. Can't beat massaging bits of metal into shape during a wet and windy weekend 8)

 

So anyway, I had a bit of a maintenance and improvement session today, which usually occurs annually :D

 

The most unreliable part of my turbo conversion so far has been the exhaust manifolds. 2 x crap copies of the SPA Turbo manifold cracked. 1 x ATP warped. 1 x Ebay ATP copy warped.

 

What happens is 1 and 6 ends of the manifold warp, as you can clearly see here on this flat surface. Probably because all the heat builds up in the middle, pre turbo, and 1 and 6 cool quicker (less metal)? :shrug:

 

This is the ATP copy I fitted earlier this year.

 

 

So I dug out the old ATP mani that warped last year and I set about skimming and prepping it for use again. I wasn't going to pay some bloke £75-£100 for 5 minutes work on a milling machine, so I bought a granite chopping board from Tesco (a dead flat surface is critical) and some emery roll and 'skimmed' it flat again myself. Not a bad job I think you'll agree :D

 

 

 

I also cut out the webbing between the cylinder pairs so that the runners can expand and contract at their own rate. I think part of the reason for the warping, as I say, was the heat was concentrated in the middle and because all 6 runners are joined together in one big log, the outer runners can't cool at their own rate, so started to pull up.....

 

 

.....which on this occasion pulled out the upper stud on cylinder 1 because I was using ARP exhaust studs, which have no give what so ever. I've gone back to copper nuts and standard steel studs, which have more give. Better that than stripping threads in the head eh? :D

 

So I had to helicoil the thread. For those who haven't helicoiled a stripped thread before, it's pretty funky!

 

In the kit you get a bunch of thread inserts, the insertion tool and the correct size tap and drill....

 

 

First you drill the hole with the supplied drill, then tap it.....

 

 

Then stick a thread on the tool....

 

 

Then stick it in the hole!

 

 

Wind it in until the tool snaps the little tang off and job done! A nice new thread :D

 

 

And whilst I was in the mood for drilling and tapping, I had issues with the Wastegate bolts winding out (another pants bit of design by ATP) causing a leak, so I solved that one too :D

 

I filed some flats on the wastegate bolts and then I tapped in some M5 bolts to stop them backing out....

 

 

 

I put a new EGT probe in and pulled it out a little. I don't think it needed to be as far in as I had it before!

 

 

I want to run electronic boost control in the near future, so I decided to take the 13psi spring out of the Tial and put an 8psi one in.

 

You really need a deep vice or a pillar drill to do this. Get in position and loosen the plinth so that it can be wound down. Undo the bolts holding the lid on....

 

 

Here's why you need to open it gently, the springs are massive!! If you undo it in your hands, it will take your eye out or fly across the workshop once the last bolt twangs out.....

 

 

Lower the plinth down to expose the innards...

 

 

8psi spring goes in. Much larger 13psi spring on the right. As Haynes say, refitting is the reverse of removal but be careful to realign the lid with the bottom half and don't pinch the orange diaphragm. You'll kick your own arse if you do because it's very expensive to replace.

 

 

Some ATP manifolds don't have the stud holes drilled in the right place, which causes exhaust port misalignment, mine was no exception! So I elongated them with a file.

 

 

That's that done again! Hopefully my modifications will stop the warping problem. If it does it again, I will design and make my own manifold. Oh and I also added a manual boost controller for now directly onto the turbo scroll. Neat huh? :D

 

 

Another potential reason for the warping issue is excessive EGT (Exhaust gas temp) and to that end I've whacked up the timing to bring it down. EGT can rise with too little and also too much timing. It's just a case of finding the numbers that work. Tuning to EGT is far better than AFR. People get obsessed with running particular AFRs (Air fuel ratio) but EGT is far more telling. The engine likes what it likes, it's as simple as that 8)

 

Heap big timing at motorway cruising :D

 

 

 

After a 30 min blast I'm now seeing 750 deg C at 90mph and 845 deg C at full boost (currently 8psi) and around 600 at light throttle cruising and 450 at idle. Those to me are acceptable and in line with other turbo cars I've researched.

 

The joys of turbos eh? :lol:

[VR6Joni 0]

Love the granite chopping block, we have the proper engineers blocks at work made from granite, bit thicker but somehow very much doubt there's much difference in flatness.

Is there a exhaust manifold that you'd recommend yet Kev? as they all seem to be going to sh1t. That gap/warp in the picture was ridiculous.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Love the granite chopping block, we have the proper engineers blocks at work made from granite, bit thicker but somehow very much doubt there's much difference in flatness.

Is there a exhaust manifold that you'd recommend yet Kev? as they all seem to be going to s**t. That gap/warp in the picture was ridiculous.

 

It's funny because when I go shopping with the missus in B&Q or Tesco, I'm always on the look out for bits and pieces that can be used for the car. My first turbo build used 63mm diameter steel table legs from B&Q for the boost pipework :lol:

 

As for a recommended manifold, none of the cast ones mate, they're all crap imo.

 

One thing I've repeatedley learned over the past 4 years is VAG do things for a reason. They make the VR6 headers 2 seperate banks of 3 for a reason..... the reason is warping.

 

This is what I would recommend.... and indeed is what I plan to do if the cast mani warps again. Build a turbo mani around the stock headers, but not like EIP did it.....but like this....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rob_B 0]

that would be an ambitious first welding project for you Kev!!

i'd quite fancy that one! haven't got a tig welder though :(

[ziderapple 0]

Quality post Kev, pictures are very good quality too. I do like the last manifold, will be sure to cure the warping issue. Why don't you get busy making one as I guess even with your mod's it's only a matter of time until the refaced manifold warps again - fingers crossed it'll last longer this time.

 

It's posts like the above that make me really miss having a modified car to tinker with.

[pete_griff 0]

quality post Kev - cheers for sharing. :D

 

was yours making the horrible "cracking" noise where the exhaust gasses are just escaping past the gasket?

 

my mate's celica gt-4 had that problem - sounded like something much more serious. we traced it in the end as he was getting strange intermittent boost with spikes etc.

[junkie 0]

So would the new Manila design you want to do be a good choice to make it twin scroll.

[KIPVW 0]

Bloody hell Kev, i dont know much what is being talked in your thread but i do like to see how much engineering is going into it! :shock: staggering stuff.

 

I'll try not to post such pointless comments again :roll: :lol: . but very impressed.

[Jim 2]

Like so many things we say about aftermarket parts, VW did things a certain way for a reason! I guess it just goes to prove they knew what they were doing in the exhaust manifold as well though it's always disappointing when you've paid out more than once for a supposed high performance aftermarket item only to find it's anything but.

 

Another great post and a great read.. thanks for sharing! Always helps me to improve my weedy knowledge about these things.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Thanks for all your comments peeps!

 

that would be an ambitious first welding project for you Kev!!

i'd quite fancy that one! haven't got a tig welder though :(

 

Ambitious indeed! What I would probably do is just tack it together with spots and then hand it over to my master tigger mate, who did my downpipe for me. Most of the labour with things like that is cutting and shaping the parts.

 

You need a gas bottle for tig don't you? And are there any special mains power requirements with welders?

 

Quality post Kev, pictures are very good quality too. I do like the last manifold, will be sure to cure the warping issue. Why don't you get busy making one as I guess even with your mod's it's only a matter of time until the refaced manifold warps again - fingers crossed it'll last longer this time.

 

It's posts like the above that make me really miss having a modified car to tinker with.

 

Yeah I love the tinkering. I initially get annoyed about the same problem happening again and again, but then I look forward to fixing it!

 

Fingers crossed this one lasts longer. I've lowered the boost to 8psi, modified the map and the exhaust gas temperatures are much more acceptatble now.

 

Cutting out the webbing has helped I think. When I used to get home and stick it in the garage, there used to be very loud cracking noises as the iron contracted. The manifold never actually cracked, but it was disconcerting and evident that the manifold grew considerably when hot. Since saturday it hasn't made these cracking noises, but only time will tell I guess.

 

I was looking at my 24V lump yesterday. I have all the kit ready to turbo that, except the exhaust manifold. That has 2 seperate castings like the 12V as you know, so rather than throwing more money at the 12V fixing the same issue, I may aswell stick the 24V in and make a mani for that instead.

 

I would welcome any ideas from people on how to strengthen the 24V's plastic intake too?. I want to use that this time for low rpm torque because the 24V has even less low end urge than the 12V with a short runner, but it flows a good deal more, perfect for turbos! :luvlove:

 

was yours making the horrible "cracking" noise where the exhaust gasses are just escaping past the gasket?

 

my mate's celica gt-4 had that problem - sounded like something much more serious. we traced it in the end as he was getting strange intermittent boost with spikes etc.

 

Yeah it was making that loud chuffing noise mate. Good thing with iron is it expands a lot, so the gap closes when it gets hot, but it's an MOT failure, so it had to be fixed.

 

Yeah pre-turbo exhaust leaks can play havoc with the boost consistency! Very hard to make a turbo exhaust system gas tight due to the back pressures involved.

 

So would the new Manila design you want to do be a good choice to make it twin scroll.

 

Yep, I would probably go T4 twin scroll and have a 38mm wastegate per scroll :D

I do it properly with a new turbine housing too for extra benefit!

 

Bloody hell Kev, i dont know much what is being talked in your thread but i do like to see how much engineering is going into it! :shock: staggering stuff.

 

I'll try not to post such pointless comments again :roll: :lol: . but very impressed.

 

Cheers mate, not a pointless comment at all. It's always nice to get feedback, good or bad :salute: :D

 

Like so many things we say about aftermarket parts, VW did things a certain way for a reason! I guess it just goes to prove they knew what they were doing in the exhaust manifold as well though it's always disappointing when you've paid out more than once for a supposed high performance aftermarket item only to find it's anything but.

 

Another great post and a great read.. thanks for sharing! Always helps me to improve my weedy knowledge about these things.

 

Absolutely right Jim. OEs have the means and the money to test things to destruction, so using their experience and wisdom where possible is a good idea. They don't get everything right of course, but 9 times in 10 they do.

 

With my engineer's hat on (not that I am an engineer) the one thing in the back of my mind about a steel manifold bolted to the stock cast ones, is weight.

 

The OE headers were designed to support just the weight of the downpipes and they also have a very flexible coupling right at the flange. My turbo weighs 10Kg. Plus the turbo mani itself, plus the wastegate, associate piping and of course the main downpipe, that's getting on for 25Kg hung off the stock headers, and all the heat and flexing that goes with it. I can't say for sure, but I'm fairly certain over time, the stock headers will crack. I had one crack on me on the standard engine!

 

If the manifold can be made as short and stumpy as possible and supported with struts bolted to the block, it might just last the distance!

 

On a different note, dropping the boost to 8psi feels brilliant. It feels OE, just smooth and punchy. Not insanely fast, but feels more of a package.

 

I'm actually giving thought to leaving it that way and going back to 15" speedos and 288s. Am I :cuckoo: ? I just have a hankering for as close to OE+ as I can get it!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Just seen this on Ebay - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/exhaust-manifold- ... 3ef9e9b79c

 

It seems someone else shares my thoughts on 3 seperate banks of 2 to allow for localised expansion.

 

I hate to say it but British and European engineers seem to go that extra mile and think about things like this, compared to the Americans. It's why we are regarded as the best motor engineers in the world. We are F1 and Rally experts after all :salute:

[rado2 0]

Love reading your threads great work mate gives us all ideas for future mods :clap:

[Rob_B 0]

not really much idea about tig welding yet but you do need gas. only just learning to mig weld myself.

with regards to power requirements, it depends what welder you are using.

[Timbo 0]

If you're gonna be making manifold jigs and tacking up manifolds then I would just get a MIG welder and some stainless wire for the tacks. TIG is overkill unless you're gonna weld the manifold up yourself. Yeah you need gas; the IG part is inert gas. When you weld in oxygen the metal oxidises as it melts which makes for weak welds and tricky welding control. By blasting a cone of inert gas (usually some mixture of argon and carbon dioxide) over the weld, the oxidisation is minimised. Enthusiast MIG welders take little 60/110 litre bottles of the gas, which are pretty uneconomical for doing a lot of welding. They can easily be converted to use larger industrial sized bottles though.

 

When professional welders make manifolds they do what's called "back purge" with gas, meaning to force the welding gas through the back of the manifold they're making rather than or in addition to the gas that comes from the welding torch. This ensures the back face of the weld (the inside of the tubing) ends up good. I'd love to have a shot at welding up a manifold some time, though. My skills/budget/equipment at the moment are limited to MIG unfortunately. A nicely TIGed manifold is really a work of art; beautiful. Good luck :salute:.

[pete_griff 0]

howdy Kev - glad to hear it's all sorted once again.

 

not surprised you're (FINALLY!) getting round to the 24v job. if it was me, i would get some good support "butresses" going from the bend in the manifold to support the extra weight. you could also put some support straps in on the top going on to the top of the head bolts...

i would also look at getting the newly made manifolds and downpipe ceramic treated so they pass the heat through as quickly as possible and don't retain the heat themselves.

 

as for the inlet - bin the plastic item if you're going boost. they even crack in OEM N/A form and are generally not very robust. they're obviously well designed for flow, but i wouldn't even consider it when running F/I.

 

if you speak nicely to the Crazy one - him and Graham are most of the way to knocking up a 24v shortrunner (or so i believe...). that'll sort you out! :wink:

[OSV 0]

Don't know if you've seen it but there is a Golf 4Mo on Ed38 thread called Zombie or something. He has mated a 3.2 bottom end with a 2.8 head (to get around VVT IIRC) and gone turbo, I believe he got approx 550 bhp straight off (his father runs Regal) they have a very powerful MK5 GTI too

 

 

 

The spec...

 

Engine:

 

548bhp and 545 ft/lb of torque at 1.3 bar

 

- MK5 R32 Block

- MK4 2.8 4motion head and engine management

- Custom Remapped

- Cast Exhaust Manifold

- Tial wastegate with 1 bar spring

- Precision engineering 6262 Turbocharger

- JE Low Comp Pistons

- PEC Rods

- C2 Motorsports short runner manifold

- 630cc Injectors

- Custom 3" downpipe

- Wastegate Screamer pipe straight to the floor

- Single resonator exhaust system

- Twin fuel pump setup

- Greddy profec b spec II boost controller

- HUGE intercooler

- custom boost pipes and heat shielding

- double platinum denso plugs

- semi wire tuck with everything running through the inner wings

- baffled sump

- full set of VF-Engineering engine mounts

- ARP head stud kit

- Mocal oil catch can

[jamminvr6storm 0]

^ Pretty sure that car is for sale on PH at the mo (sorry Kev, dont mean to highjack your thread mate)

[OSV 0]

Me too just thought i'd add it whilst you were talking about the 24v head, feel free to delete as appropriate