_leon_ 0 Posted February 19, 2007 I'm going to get the gearbox rebuilt and have read that g60 owners usually fit the vr 1st, 2nd, 5th cogs in the process. Has anyone tried any other ratios - or even used custom ratios? What about final drive options? Been through a long (and painful) bout of indecision with the car and now finalised on getting the car on track and getting the full use out of the money I've thrown at it. So the ratios and FD decisions need to be suited well to track in addition to road driving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigTartanJudge 0 Posted February 20, 2007 use the search mate, there has been lots of discussion about the best gearbox / ratios to use for the G60 Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_leon_ 0 Posted February 20, 2007 erm - i had used it for 2 nights and didn't feel i was finding anything other than using vr vogs in the g60 box. i've found good information on vortex regardless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted February 20, 2007 The attached is a useful tool. It's Quaife's speed calc. Feed it some gear and FD ratios and it tell you everything you need to know. You'll need to rename the .txt to .exe before installing (the forum doesn't allow .exe uploads). For reference, the VR ratios are:- 1 - 3.78 2 - 2.12 3 - 1.46 4 - 1.03 5 - 0.84 FD - 3.39 I don't know what the G60 ratios are, other than the FD, 3.68. Once you know what kind of speeds you're looking for in each gear and the closeness of the ratios, you can then trawl through VW's box ratios and see what'll fit. The VR 2nd is good in the G60 as it will pull 60 without an upshift to 3rd..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yandards 0 Posted February 20, 2007 The attached is a useful tool. It's Quaife's speed calc. Feed it some gear and FD ratios and it tell you everything you need to know. You'll need to rename the .txt to .exe before installing (the forum doesn't allow .exe uploads). For reference, the VR ratios are:- 1 - 3.78 2 - 2.12 3 - 1.46 4 - 1.03 5 - 0.84 FD - 3.39 I don't know what the G60 ratios are, other than the FD, 3.68. Once you know what kind of speeds you're looking for in each gear and the closeness of the ratios, you can then trawl through VW's box ratios and see what'll fit. The VR 2nd is good in the G60 as it will pull 60 without an upshift to 3rd..... Or look in the knowledge base, whre you will find the complete set of all gear ratios for all the gearboxes fitted to the Corrado, including at the bottom a useful gear ratio - road speed / rev calculator. 02A Gearbox Info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_leon_ 0 Posted February 20, 2007 Thanks a lot guys - appreciated - thats very helpful 8) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_leon_ 0 Posted February 21, 2007 Ok, I've tried the Quaife tool and got odd readings :oops: so perhaps I'm missing data on one of the fields. So tried the ratio calculator from gearboxman http://www.gearboxman.co.uk/inforatios.html and found the below; * with the g60's standard 3.68 final drive, adding the VR 1st and 2nd cogs didn;t make a dramatic difference - not what people on here have claimed - that 60+mph is achievable in 2nd gear. Granted the G60 doesn't rev as high as the VR. * with adding the VR 1st/2nd gears and fitting a 3.94 final drive for shorter gearing (Vince at Stealth suggested this for track use), the gear ratios are very close to std g60 gear ratios See the attached images. Which makes me ask the questions; 1) What is actually worth doing? 2) Are these ratio calulations accurate? 3) Has anyone fitted the 3.94 final drive with the replacement VR cogs? Or would it be more advisable to stick with the std 3.68 final drive? I know this topic has had various discussion but its easier to ask a series of questions directly related to ratios rather than get stuck in supplier info and 'what fits' discussions. I'm maybe missing something fundamental - if so, please help! Hopefully some of the G60 owners who have already done this work can also help ;) Any help, as always, very much appreciated :D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJ 0 Posted February 21, 2007 If you *have* to get the box rebuilt then I'd fit the VR6 1st and 2nd just to make road driving more fun. For track outings hopefully you won't be needing 1st and 2nd gears much anyway!! Fit a shift light system, to remind you not to over-rev the s/c... Oh, and a baffled sump to reduce oil starvation and an oil cooler. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_leon_ 0 Posted February 21, 2007 Getting the VR gears will cost around £220 after postage and then additional labour. So I need to establish if its really worth the extra cost. I'm sure I have read better results than the above figures would suggest - but am hoping to get advice/experience from others before going ahead. Theres a few ways I could go - and others are bound to have come across this before... The rebuild is mainly due to fitting a peloquin diff - so might as well do the lot in one go. Baffled sump for sure - hadn't thought about a shift light but makes sense 8) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yandards 0 Posted February 21, 2007 I would try to see what the results are on a more standard set of rims and tyres, max width of 205mm on a 15 for a standard C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_leon_ 0 Posted February 21, 2007 Cheers. The rolling radius works out pretty much the same. 1mph out in 2 of the gears. Not sure if I am asking a repeat question, a stupid question or if no ones sure? lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kongo127 0 Posted February 22, 2007 In my opinion any modded G60 needs a low final drive ratio. It helps to prevent wheel spinning and feel the G60 torque engine. The best original G60 gearbox that i´ve found so far is the ATB one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
g60ff 0 Posted February 22, 2007 Apparently the mk3 golf gti 2.0l 16v is good for the G60, found it in the search a while ago, can't remember who it was who did it. My brother sent me the following file, came from a pug 205 forum (hence all the mi-16 references), quite interesting for experimenting with gear ratios. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_leon_ 0 Posted February 22, 2007 thats a great comparison - thanks :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CTWG60 0 Posted March 13, 2007 There is nothing really wrong with the G60 ratios it's the differentials ratio that makes the power unusable especially when it has 100000 + miles and the breakaway torque is next to nothing. The CTN golf mk3 diesel box gives similar final drive ratios to the VR conversion in 1st and 2nd without the expense of stripping down two boxs and the expense of buying a much sort after VR box. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_leon_ 0 Posted March 13, 2007 very interesting read. strikes me why the norm is the VR 1,2 cogs. Changing the FD for a VR or even the CTN item makes huge differences. How aggressive do you find the car now? Wanting to make a lot more use of the torque, track it and enjoy the road still Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CTWG60 0 Posted March 13, 2007 Only done 30 miles since I did the swap and a few other jobs as I was off on a family 4 day break, not in the corrado believe it or not. And now my car is having rear bushes, brake bias, braided teflon hoses and handbrake cables replaced and a few other bits and peices I really didn't want to do myself. So I've not been able to fully evaluate the difference. After I had increased the engines power I found that the torque band felt wider and started lower down the rev range. I could pull off in slow rush hour traffic in 3rd without touching the accelerator. I just raised the clutch slowly and off I went. I could drive to work and only had come out of 5th if I had to stop. It was fun but I knew it wasn't right, I knew I wasn't getting the best out of engine because I couldn't even get off the first throttle valve without wheel spin at the lights or at a busy T junction. Loss of traction in 3rd gear on corners was leathel. Really difficult to answer the aggressive question. The CBA box had more violent acceleration/deceleration as you changed gear in first and second but i think that had more to do with how quickly you had too change between them two gears. As a result I never really bothered racing off at the lights because I just felt silly doing it. I mean changing into 3rd at less than 55mph is pathetic but VW did it for a reason I suppose. I can get to 62mph faster now than I could previously but it doesn't feel as fast the gears go on for longer and there is less of a problem with feathering in the throttle so you don't loose traction. The agression of the box I suppose is that I, theoretically, could be doing 100mph in 5th @ 3500 rpm drop it down into 4th putting me at around 4500rpm and I can use the peak torque of the engine to accelerate onto 130mph in not much time at all. Now I consider that to be agressive. If I then changed into 5th there I am again at 4600rpm right on top of the peak torque doing 130mph. All theroetical of course. But the same is true at lower speeds if I want to overtake safely and therfore as quickly as possible and I am behind a 86 year old out for a country drive doing 40mph on country lanes I drop down into 2nd gear putting me at around 4000rpm and off I go to 60mph quick sharpish. I suppose what I am saying is you can enjoy the engines flexibility. But brobaly one of the best thigs about the CTN box is that it is basically a stronger CBA gearbox with a diff that stetches out the existing ratios so your shift points stay the same and you don't feel like you have to relearn when to change gear. Cruising in 5th is more relaxed but I'd say it is now more of an overdrive gear for long distance motorway driving. For a track day car i'd say you would need a closer ratio box if you were competing. Have a look at this BBM box's ratios. http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/VW_T ... _CAL_.html I don't think a VR 1st & 2nd into a CBA box with a 3.647 FD is a viable option it would make little difference to 2nd gear traction/acceleration and 3rd is noticably shortend in comparison to the other gears. Not to mention the expense. Take a look at the numbers again. Gearbox:- CTN 1.9L D Tyre:- Michelin all patterns 205/50 x 15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Top Gear gives 28.274 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 175.298 MPH at 6200 RPM Engine speeds in top gear:- 30 MPH = 1061 RPM 40 MPH = 1415 RPM 50 MPH = 1768 RPM 60 MPH = 2122 RPM 70 MPH = 2476 RPM 80 MPH = 2829 RPM 90 MPH = 3183 RPM 100 MPH = 3537 RPM Top Speed in 1 gear = 35.061 MPH And changes into 2 gear at 3475 RPM dropping 2725 RPM Top Speed in 2 gear = 62.550 MPH And changes into 3 gear at 3982 RPM dropping 2218 RPM Top Speed in 3 gear = 97.393 MPH And changes into 4 gear at 4428 RPM dropping 1772 RPM Top Speed in 4 gear = 136.355 MPH And changes into 5 gear at 4823 RPM dropping 1377 RPM Top Speed in 5 gear = 175.298 MPH ************************************************************ Gearbox:- Corrado CBA Tyre:- Michelin all patterns 205/50 x 15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Top Gear gives 24.049 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 149.105 MPH at 6200 RPM Engine speeds in top gear:- 30 MPH = 1247 RPM 40 MPH = 1663 RPM 50 MPH = 2079 RPM 60 MPH = 2495 RPM 70 MPH = 2911 RPM 80 MPH = 3327 RPM 90 MPH = 3742 RPM 100 MPH = 4158 RPM Top Speed in 1 gear = 30.359 MPH And changes into 2 gear at 3475 RPM dropping 2725 RPM Top Speed in 2 gear = 54.161 MPH And changes into 3 gear at 3982 RPM dropping 2218 RPM Top Speed in 3 gear = 84.332 MPH And changes into 4 gear at 4407 RPM dropping 1793 RPM Top Speed in 4 gear = 118.642 MPH And changes into 5 gear at 4933 RPM dropping 1267 RPM Top Speed in 5 gear = 149.105 MPH ************************************************************ Gearbox:- Corrado CBA-VR1&2 Tyre:- Michelin all patterns 205/50 x 15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Top Gear gives 24.049 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 149.105 MPH at 6200 RPM Engine speeds in top gear:- 30 MPH = 1247 RPM 40 MPH = 1663 RPM 50 MPH = 2079 RPM 60 MPH = 2495 RPM 70 MPH = 2911 RPM 80 MPH = 3327 RPM 90 MPH = 3742 RPM 100 MPH = 4158 RPM Top Speed in 1 gear = 34.755 MPH And changes into 2 gear at 3652 RPM dropping 2548 RPM Top Speed in 2 gear = 58.998 MPH And changes into 3 gear at 4337 RPM dropping 1863 RPM Top Speed in 3 gear = 84.332 MPH And changes into 4 gear at 4407 RPM dropping 1793 RPM Top Speed in 4 gear = 118.642 MPH And changes into 5 gear at 4933 RPM dropping 1267 RPM Top Speed in 5 gear = 149.105 MPH ************************************************************ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CTWG60 0 Posted March 13, 2007 If on the other hand you had an ATB G60 box with it's 3.45 FD and wanted to fit a LSD then a vr 1 & 2 would be useful but third will stil be shortened. See below Gearbox:- Corrado ATB vr 1+2 Tyre:- Michelin all patterns 205/50 x 15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Top Gear gives 24.582 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 152.408 MPH at 6200 RPM Engine speeds in top gear:- 30 MPH = 1220 RPM 40 MPH = 1627 RPM 50 MPH = 2034 RPM 60 MPH = 2441 RPM 70 MPH = 2848 RPM 80 MPH = 3254 RPM 90 MPH = 3661 RPM 100 MPH = 4068 RPM Top Speed in 1 gear = 36.740 MPH And changes into 2 gear at 3653 RPM dropping 2547 RPM Top Speed in 2 gear = 62.354 MPH And changes into 3 gear at 4288 RPM dropping 1912 RPM Top Speed in 3 gear = 90.155 MPH And changes into 4 gear at 4478 RPM dropping 1722 RPM Top Speed in 4 gear = 124.810 MPH And changes into 5 gear at 5077 RPM dropping 1123 RPM Top Speed in 5 gear = 152.408 MPH ************************************************************ Gearbox:- CTN 1.9L D Tyre:- Michelin all patterns 205/50 x 15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Top Gear gives 28.274 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 175.298 MPH at 6200 RPM Engine speeds in top gear:- 30 MPH = 1061 RPM 40 MPH = 1415 RPM 50 MPH = 1768 RPM 60 MPH = 2122 RPM 70 MPH = 2476 RPM 80 MPH = 2829 RPM 90 MPH = 3183 RPM 100 MPH = 3537 RPM Top Speed in 1 gear = 35.061 MPH And changes into 2 gear at 3475 RPM dropping 2725 RPM Top Speed in 2 gear = 62.550 MPH And changes into 3 gear at 3982 RPM dropping 2218 RPM Top Speed in 3 gear = 97.393 MPH And changes into 4 gear at 4428 RPM dropping 1772 RPM Top Speed in 4 gear = 136.355 MPH And changes into 5 gear at 4823 RPM dropping 1377 RPM Top Speed in 5 gear = 175.298 MPH ************************************************************ Gearbox:- Corrado ATB Tyre:- Michelin all patterns 205/50 x 15 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Top Gear gives 24.597 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 152.504 MPH at 6200 RPM Engine speeds in top gear:- 30 MPH = 1220 RPM 40 MPH = 1626 RPM 50 MPH = 2033 RPM 60 MPH = 2439 RPM 70 MPH = 2846 RPM 80 MPH = 3252 RPM 90 MPH = 3659 RPM 100 MPH = 4065 RPM Top Speed in 1 gear = 32.091 MPH And changes into 2 gear at 3454 RPM dropping 2746 RPM Top Speed in 2 gear = 57.596 MPH And changes into 3 gear at 3962 RPM dropping 2238 RPM Top Speed in 3 gear = 90.142 MPH And changes into 4 gear at 4476 RPM dropping 1724 RPM Top Speed in 4 gear = 124.862 MPH And changes into 5 gear at 5076 RPM dropping 1124 RPM Top Speed in 5 gear = 152.504 MPH ************************************************************ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CTWG60 0 Posted March 13, 2007 The reason The CTN diff/box makes it look like a drastic change to the gearing is because it gives you VR like 1&2 but because it maintains the gear to gear ratios the drop in revs from 2nd to 3rd is not shortened and this has a sort of knock on effect with the speeds you can obtain in each gear. If you look at the difference in the angles on the graph for 3rd & 4th they aren't that different and therefore not that much harder for the engine to deal with for want of a better expression. Actually just realised I don't know what your current gearbox code is. Any Idea? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_leon_ 0 Posted March 13, 2007 Quality stuff! What you say about the VR gears making 3rd shorter is part of the reason I kicked off this discussion - there have got to be other setups that don't compromise that way. The CTN seems to change the character of the car quite dramatically. For the road its got to be a better solution to the CBA+VR setup. Do you feel 5th gear is more of less lost unless cruising (that might be a very good thing though!...). Even more interesting is the BBM (CAL) box. Agreed for track, it looks a quality option - and far better in my opinion than any combination of the CBA and CHN (VR) ratios. On changing up from 5500 you pretty much hit peak (or close) in every gear. Its the best suited to track I've seen so far and can do 80mph @ 3500rpm which isn't that bad. I've got a CBA box in mine - so same as your old one I think? The vicious acceleration has novelty for a while but that wore off ages ago - and the BBM box would likely suffer the same fate with day to day driving. Is there anything you don't like or feel is missing now you've made that change? What is it that creates the graphs for you? Would be good to see a comparison between the CTN, CBA, CHK and BBM (CAL) boxes. I have all the ratios if you wanted to show me what is used to produce them? The gearboxman one I've used previously doesn't give output as good as that. Did you get the cable selector sorted in the end? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CTWG60 0 Posted March 13, 2007 Don't get me wrong you can still get good acceleration above 50-60mph in 5th, well i do anyway, it's just not quite as quick below that level. But then I'm comparing it to the stupidness of not having to use the other gears with old my old box and the engines current level of tune. I'm using the quaife calculator. It has a graph button next to the calc button on the toolbar. I've pretty much have got the shifting adjustment sorted. Occasionally the odd numbered gears are a little notchy but have ask the v. experienced mechanic Tony who is doing all the horrible tricky jobs at the moment to take it for a test drive to fine tune the adjustment. When I get it back I'll do some 40-60 60-80 80-100 acceleraaation times in 4th and 5th as I have previous record of car performance with old gearbox in current tune. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_leon_ 0 Posted March 14, 2007 So despite the shifting adjustment - it fits in place of the original CBA with no other complications? Have seen the only difference (of great significance) is the FD used - i'm sold on that idea over swapping cogs etc. Do you feel you're hitting peak at the right times from 2nd up? Depends on where you shift up from - don't often wait till 6000 and never actually 6200 myself Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CTWG60 0 Posted March 14, 2007 You will have an early shift mech and cable bracket like mine. If you get a later box like the CTN make sure they leave the cable support bracket on the box and don't break the plastic driver on the shift mech like they did with mine. Make sure you get the balance weight aswell. I counted the splines and got my micrometer out on the input shaft just to make sure it was correct. I don't know what the power delivery is like on your engine but I assume you are happy with the a shift point of around 5500rpm. I don't know how the cam your running has affected the were the torque band is or max power etc. (What's a BV head?) I myself would shift at 5500rpm as any later just makes more noise and am running a 65mm pulley so boost is tailing off then if I remember rightly. But anyway the shift points would remain the same as the ratios are very similar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_leon_ 0 Posted March 14, 2007 I'm getting mine rolling roaded in a months time so won't know exactly what the changes have made till then. The cam is not one I would have chosen but since it came with the head (big valve head) then I'll try it first before spending further money on another. I found after changing the downpipe for a 4 branch the power band moved higher up the range and that will either happen again or stay the same with the new head/cam. Regardless, the current ratios will feel shorter again now. I'll continue working more on the engine and in time may exchange the charger. So the CTN will likely have favourable ratios - power delivery won't be too far from yours - the cam is the only factor that will be responsible for different behavior. Theres not really a compromise to be had here - at least I can't see one - and one thats easy/cheap. For road, CTN box seems great and there might be info on vortex about the BBM setup. I'm planning to wait till i get some graphs to see what the engine is doing before making any decisions - its not realistic otherwise - but I'm glad there are tried and tested options other than the VR into CBA route. How old is your CTN box? Wanting an atb diff fitted - a rebuild for me is pretty much on the cards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
