stand-alone management on an r32

[pete_griff 0]

i'm going to be getting an r32 engine to put in my corrado towards the end of this year. when i do, i may well get a standalone management system (e.g. DTA S80) as the wiring will need re-doing anyway, so that would be the ideal time.

 

i was wondering exactly what sort of bhp figures i would expect to see and exactly what effects the system would have on fuel epecially and just daily running - i would expect it to be better in every way (also i think you can run two maps with the S80 - i.e one for power and one for economy; operated just by a manual switch), but any information from members with any experience of standalone systems would be really appreciated - i'm especially looking to kev haywire here as i know he's running DTA standalone already.

 

cheers again gents

 

(my plan is to rebuild the r32 engine before i put it in my car and get a new cam kit, mainly just so everything in the engine is new, including the cams and followers. i was going to go for a mild cam as i'm not going for horrendous power, as fuel economy is still an issue as i do lots of miles and i don't think there's much benefit to be had from having stupid power through a front wheel drive car. i would be perfectly happy with about 260-270 bhp as i know the standard engine is 236-just to help anyone with any suggestions about the management system...)

[junkie 0]

On a remapped standard ECU you would push those numbers so with standalone it should give the same without cams.

[dinkus 10]

Emerald is very good and gets around 270bhp I think.

[jamminvr6storm 0]

Im sure storm developments quoted me 290 ish with their emarald, at the time i was thinking its about the same as a vortech'd VR but better power delivery

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Hey Pete

 

If economy is important, the stock ECU is very hard to beat, but you have weight on your side, or a lack of.

 

A stock MK5 R32 only manages 26mpg average on the combined cycle.....but it weighs 1600kg and makes 247hp. I personally think that's quite reasonable for the power & weight tbh.

 

Your Corrado with an R32 in it will be around 1350Kg gross vehicle weight, fully juiced up.

 

So you'll be 250kg lighter, meaning you can run it a little leaner at certain rpms and throttle openings. I reckon you could realistically acheive 30-33mpg on the combined cycle if you don't rag it all the time.

 

The R32 has adapative mapping for 2WD mode, but I still think it will be easier and cheaper to go standalone, and you will have full control of the tune. You might lose a few features of the engine, depends what ECU you choose.

 

Personally I like DTA. Not because it's what I use myself, but because of the software and physical reliability of the ECUs. The Emerald seems too cheap to me and I don't like the software, but that's just my opinion. Don't discount it. A lot of people get on with it.

I certainly would not run an R32 on Megasquirt, that's for sure!! :lol:

 

Switchable mapping is mainly for different fuels, such as switching automatically between petrol and methanol using a GM 12570260 ethanol sensor. Ethanol needs to burn at 9:1, whereas petrol burns [completely] in 14.7 parts air.

 

You can get both your economy and power with one map mate ;-)

 

Download the DTA SWIN software and also the Emerald software and see which you prefer the look of. I know on the DTA you can load it off line and play around with some of the included sample maps to get a feel. I think on the Emerald it needs to talk to the ECU before the software will load, which is a bit crap tbh..... but their site will confirm.

[dinkus 10]

I'm fairly sure you can screw around with the Emerald software offline, but no idea what it's like compared to the DTA stuff. Scruff runs Emerald on his Cossie engine and it seems to work really well with no reliability issues.

 

I wouldn't call £700 cheap :lol: They are made by Dave Walker who seems to be the fountain of knowledge on ECUs and also seems to do the Emerald thing more for fun than anything else (whatever floats your boat I guess :lol: )

 

Scruff's got the 3 maps set up on his Dax, but they mostly control the boost - namely how much and how hard it kicks in.

 

Map 1 is tippy toe, minimal boost cos it's wet and I don't want to die upside down in a hedge setting

Map 2 is daily driver setting

Map 3 is full-throttle shifting, maximum boost, light the tyres up and pop flames setting

 

But there's little need or point on a N/A engine as it's either going to work or it's not...

[tallpaul1977 0]

I use the new Emerald ecu on my 1.8T and im very happy with both the ecu and customer service I get from Emerald. Well worth giving them a try.

[dirtytorque 0]

I wonder if anyone has ever squirted an r32 block?

[pete_griff 0]

haha - i don't think i'm going to be using megasquirt, cheers anyway!

 

i know emerald are good, but i've heard better things about DTA, so i'm in two minds.

 

in all fairness though, it's going to be 6 months before i buy it now, so something new and amazing may have come out by then - at the moment though, to me anyway, dta looks to be better specced to deal with everything complicated the r32 has (e.g the vvt, the flap in the inlet manifold, the cam sensor etc etc) - but i'm still keeping an open mind.

 

cheers for the input gents, most appreciated.

 

really can't wait to get back in 6 months now so i can crack on with the project :)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

When I did my research into ECUs, I found that the Emerald had things the DTA didn't have and vice versa. Likewise with other ECUs.

 

You just need to pick the tool for the job. One isn't necessarily *better* than the other in terms of performance and reliability. It's the features and software you're paying for. Just like with everything else, people tend to pick a certain brand, for whatever reason, and stick with it. I looked into MoTeC, Emerald, Squirt, Autronic, DTA, MBE, AEM and 04EFi.

 

I settled on the DTA as it had the best features to cost ratio imo. And equally important, I knew there would be VR6 specific maps and expertise available for the DTA.

 

Having looked at the Emerald software and compared to the S80 and knowing you want good economy, the S80 is the better ECU for the job - if we're comparing the two as your likely choices. The Emerald is too basic imo.....but it will do the job. Depends what you objectives are.

[pete_griff 0]

When I did my research into ECUs, I found that the Emerald had things the DTA didn't have and vice versa. Likewise with other ECUs.

 

You just need to pick the tool for the job. One isn't necessarily *better* than the other in terms of performance and reliability. It's the features and software you're paying for. Just like with everything else, people tend to pick a certain brand, for whatever reason, and stick with it. I looked into MoTeC, Emerald, Squirt, Autronic, DTA, MBE, AEM and 04EFi.

 

I settled on the DTA as it had the best features to cost ratio imo. And equally important, I knew there would be VR6 specific maps and expertise available for the DTA.

 

Having looked at the Emerald software and compared to the S80 and knowing you want good economy, the S80 is the better ECU for the job - if we're comparing the two as your likely choices. The Emerald is too basic imo.....but it will do the job. Depends what you objectives are.

 

yeah cheers kev - i agree as it stands at the moment. i spoke to vince at stealth who said that he had installed a DTA system on an r32 in the past and was impressed with the results. he also said that stealth only use DTA and they are very happy with their results and reliability.

 

haven't had a play around with the software of either the DTA or the emerald as the computers at work won't allow me to download/install stuff, however after looking at the sample screens, the DTA seems pretty easy to understand/setup - we'll just have to wait and see i guess...

[dinkus 10]

Aye - the Emerald doesn't do DBW although apparently it will handle all the VVT and variable inlet stuff.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

That's no biggy, you can get cable operated throttles to run on the R32 ;-) It's a good way to remove VW's dreadful low rpm throttle mapping!

 

The R32 has a hydro-mechanical cam pulley on the rear bank to allow slack in the cam chain (whilst not affecting the main crank chain) and a hydraulic ram between the cams that tightens or relaxes the chain (advances or retards the cams). It has two 2 pin solenoids to control the cam timing, so I need to figure out how the S80 (or Emerald) can drive these. I suspect the R32 ECU uses a myriad of inputs to decide the optimum cam timing - load, rpm, probably road speed, air and water temp etc etc.

If the solenoids are PWM controlled, we're in business. If not, bums.....

 

The variable intake is just a simple flap like the Schrick, and can be made to work from a simple rpm output from the Emerald / DTA.

[pete_griff 0]

That's no biggy, you can get cable operated throttles to run on the R32 ;-) It's a good way to remove VW's dreadful low rpm throttle mapping!

 

The R32 has a hydro-mechanical cam pulley on the rear bank to allow slack in the cam chain (whilst not affecting the main crank chain) and a hydraulic ram between the cams that tightens or relaxes the chain (advances or retards the cams). It has two 2 pin solenoids to control the cam timing, so I need to figure out how the S80 (or Emerald) can drive these. I suspect the R32 ECU uses a myriad of inputs to decide the optimum cam timing - load, rpm, probably road speed, air and water temp etc etc.

If the solenoids are PWM controlled, we're in business. If not, bums.....

 

The variable intake is just a simple flap like the Schrick, and can be made to work from a simple rpm output from the Emerald / DTA.

 

thinking about it - you're right with the cable throttle - it would save modification of the pedal box and be one less thing to worry about if i just got hold of a different throttle body - hopefully be able to retain the position of my standard aixbox then too as i hate the chavy noise of induction kits.

 

what do you mean by PWM controlled - i'm probably just being a mong, but i'm unsure exactly what you're on about.

 

also i've been thinking that the only way (i can realistically see) to get road/wheel speed to the aftermarket ecu is too piggyback a couple of cables off the abs sensors... any thoughts on that? - would be good to have launch control though!

 

i've seen a couple of pics of the tensioner/hydraulic ram that controls the tension of the chain between the respective camshafts - clever idea isn't it!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

It does simplify things but you'll need some kind of idle control as the DBW throttle takes care of that aswell.

 

The S80 can manage idling with ignition timing though, so you may be OK.

 

The R32 throttle is on the nearside, so you won't be able to use your stock airbox :-)

 

PWM - Pulse Width Modulation. Rather than a simple on/off, it enables you to open and close items a specific amount, such as boost control valves and idle valves etc.

 

Road speed can be picked up from the gearbox sender, but yeah, you'd need wheel speed sensors (driven and undriven) for your traction control.

Launch control just holds the rpm to whatever you choose when the clutch is down and the throttle nailed, say, 4000rpm. When you move off, it turns off the rev limit. Quite simple really.

[pete_griff 0]

It does simplify things but you'll need some kind of idle control as the DBW throttle takes care of that aswell.

 

The S80 can manage idling with ignition timing though, so you may be OK.

 

The R32 throttle is on the nearside, so you won't be able to use your stock airbox :-)

 

PWM - Pulse Width Modulation. Rather than a simple on/off, it enables you to open and close items a specific amount, such as boost control valves and idle valves etc.

 

Road speed can be picked up from the gearbox sender, but yeah, you'd need wheel speed sensors (driven and undriven) for your traction control.

Launch control just holds the rpm to whatever you choose when the clutch is down and the throttle nailed, say, 4000rpm. When you move off, it turns off the rev limit. Quite simple really.

 

i've noticed that you don't have a maf on yours (that i could see) - i take it the standalone deletes the need for one entirely and replaces it with the intake barometric pressure sensor/air intake temp sensor and ignition controls etc

 

cheers for the explaination of pwm - makes sense.

 

with the throttle body i was hoping to get one made of find one that means i can twist the inlet so that it goes round the back of the head and i can retain the normal position of the airbox - as long as it's done with care, i can't see that the direction change would adversely affect things - i just really want an airbox and if i can retain the standard one in the standard place that would again make things easier

 

i also knew roughly how launch control worked but cheers for confirming; still i'm unsure whether piggy-backing wires off the abs sensors would work for driven/undriven wheel sensors - don't see why not as long as the ecu has the capability to be told exactly what voltages and frequency thereof etc to expect - probably a pretty standard thing across the board though...

 

anyway, i'm still not getting the bloody thing for 6 months which is really annoying as i want to get stuck into it now! i guess it'll give me something to think about other than work while i'm in hotter climes!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Nope, no MAF. Again, it's one of those things most affordable ECUs don't support. The MoTeCs and Pectels of this world do though.

 

There is often debate about which is best, MAF (air volume) or MAP (air pressure, or "speed density"). The net result of both methods is the same; a 0 to 5V output based on what the sensor 'sees'. How well either method works is purely down to the mapper.

 

Doesn't really matter with standalones though as 90% of mappers tend to use Throttle position as the main load with MAP running the fuel compensation because it's easier than mapping with MAP or MAF as the main load.

 

Why not move the battery to the driver's side and use the R32's airbox? The R32 intake is plastic, so I think you might struggle to modify that!

 

RE: the wheel sensors, most standalones only work with hall senders, but the Corrado's ABS sensors are inductive, which the ECU won't understand, but i have a circuit diagram to convert an inductive signal into a hall type signal which works well.

 

I'm getting the itch for some 24V action too. Got a little project in mind, but like you, it'll be a little while yet!

[pete_griff 0]

Nope, no MAF. Again, it's one of those things most affordable ECUs don't support. The MoTeCs and Pectels of this world do though.

 

There is often debate about which is best, MAF (air volume) or MAP (air pressure, or "speed density"). The net result of both methods is the same; a 0 to 5V output based on what the sensor 'sees'. How well either method works is purely down to the mapper.

 

Doesn't really matter with standalones though as 90% of mappers tend to use Throttle position as the main load with MAP running the fuel compensation because it's easier than mapping with MAP or MAF as the main load.

 

Why not move the battery to the driver's side and use the R32's airbox? The R32 intake is plastic, so I think you might struggle to modify that!

 

RE: the wheel sensors, most standalones only work with hall senders, but the Corrado's ABS sensors are inductive, which the ECU won't understand, but i have a circuit diagram to convert an inductive signal into a hall type signal which works well.

 

I'm getting the itch for some 24V action too. Got a little project in mind, but like you, it'll be a little while yet!

 

sorry - when i said modify the inlet i didn't mean the manifold! - i meant running a throttle body with a bend already in it, and getting some metal pipework to take the induction route back round to where it was originally with the vr engine - as yes, modifying the r32 inlet may prove tricky!

 

just wanted to say cheers by the way for all the useful input you've all given me so far - it's really useful and really really appreciated.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

No worries mate. I do rather like mucking about with mapping and standalones, if you hadn't already guessed :lol:

 

See what you mean about the throttle now! Personally I'd run a BMC as they're pretty quiet and spare myself the hassle :lol:

[cralstc 0]

Hi guys I stumbled along this short thread today. Basically I hsve hit a wall with my project. As most, it is the ECU and to be honest in some respects I am regretting starting the project. :( Just thought I might ask for some help. :D I have decided that my only solution is to get a qualified electrician to finish what I started. I think I will be giving the car to a garage that will install a Motec system and then hopefully everything will be as right as rain. I havent driven the car for well over 18 months. :(

The garage seem confident they can do it but they asked a couple of questions that I didnt know the answer to, such as variable cam capability, ect. where would I be able to find all the details about the enigne? Oh by the way I am using a 3.2 24V Audi BUB engine. basically the R32. :D The main reason is that it will alter the cost supposably.

 

With regards to the throttle body would this be of any use?

 

 

http://www.034motorsport.com/product_in ... b36ab6e1a4

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

many thanks,

 

Craig.