adjusting toe-out

[fla 9]

Just finished the suspension swop this weekend, so it lowered nicely by about 35 mm. The problem is the front wheels are toed out, rather the passenger wheel is. Is there a quickish way to sort this without messing up the rest of the alignment? Doesnt need to be absolutely spot on as it will go to the garage to be corrected, but i dont want to test drive it in this state - might end up with bald tyres after 5 miles!

[davidwort 0]

I guess the short answer is adjust that side tie rod, but I think there's a particular measurement on one side's tie rod-to rack that should be observed, I can't remember exactly why, perhaps Yandards or someone can expand.

[zak 0]

Toe is adjusted from the track rod, to get it set roughly you measure the distance between the inside of the of the front wheels at the front and back.when the distance is the same you should have parallel toe. How easy it is to to is anothey matter. When i recently put my suspension back together i did it by eye tested everything out then went and got my allignement done.

[boost monkey 0]

I guess the short answer is adjust that side tie rod, but I think there's a particular measurement on one side's tie rod-to rack that should be observed, I can't remember exactly why, perhaps Yandards or someone can expand.

 

Mk2 Golf rods are only adjustable one side, Corrado ones can be adjusted both sides. Maybe this is what you were thinking of? :salute:

[boost monkey 0]

Toe is adjusted from the track rod, to get it set roughly you measure the distance between the inside of the of the front wheels at the front and back.when the distance is the same you should have parallel toe. How easy it is to to is anothey matter. When i recently put my suspension back together i did it by eye tested everything out then went and got my allignement done.

 

A certain race team I know of adjusts their toe thusly:

 

Attach in-house J-shaped brackets to front and rear of car,

Hang aluminium poles horizontally from brackets front and rear and attach poles together with nylon string,

measure distance from centre of wheel to string on both front wheels - adjust bar position until reading is identical. Repeat for rear wheels.

Measure from wheel to string on leading edge of front wheels and trailing edge of front wheels and calculate toe setting accordingly. Repeat for rears if applicable to the vehicle.

Adjust track rod ends on either side of car to suit.

 

Doubt it would be massively hard to replicate this for a Corrado really.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Jon :salute:

[was8v 0]

The way i'd do it now would be myself and I'd make up a tracking rod like this:

 

http://clubgti.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=169701

 

And set the camber first using something like this:

 

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread ... ost1262626

 

Rather than get messed around at a variety of garages and tyre places with them messing it all up.

[davidwort 0]

Ah, found the old Sprinter Tech article explaining the setting of track, the nearside has a very specific setting for 185 tyres, different for wider tyres, and ONLY the offside should be used to adjust the track, if the nearside is upset it must be removed from the car to correctly measure the length and reset.

I think it's to do with self centering and the position of the rack/pinion.

Somewhere, I've got the workshop info and measurements, I'm not sure if the Bentley has the right values, perhaps someone with one can confirm.

[boost monkey 0]

if the nearside is upset it must be removed from the car to correctly measure the length and reset.

 

Good news david, when you say "it must be removed" are you referring to the whole steering rack?

[davidwort 0]

nah, just the track rod to get an accurate measurement.

[dr_mat 0]

...ONLY the offside should be used to adjust the track, if the nearside is upset it must be removed from the car to correctly measure the length and reset.

I think it's to do with self centering and the position of the rack/pinion.

 

TBH I think this "only adjust one side" stuff is just about keeping the steering wheel centred when local garages try to adjust the tracking without the right equipment. They also state that in the unusual case that the steering wheel is not centred, you should remove it, move it a couple of splines in the appropriate direction then re attach, rather than adjust the tracking.

 

If the "centre" of the rack was so important, and it was possible to guarantee that the LH track rod was always the right length for a given tracking angle, then surely that would also imply the RH track rod would never need adjusting either..

[fla 9]

How much adjustment can be made through the shock mounting bolts, as its only since these were replaced that the issue has arisen. The Driver side wheel is approx OK, pass side is toed out, with the steering wheel straight.

[boost monkey 0]

Shock mounting bolts adjust camber not toe? :scratch:

[was8v 0]

Shock mounting bolts adjust camber not toe? :scratch:

 

But as you adjust the camber, this affects the toe too.

 

I think its best to check/adjust the camber, then check/adjust the toe. Then check the camber is still correct and repeat if necessary eventually you will bring it to spec.

 

Then drive round the block to let everything settle and re-check both.

[boost monkey 0]

Shock mounting bolts adjust camber not toe? :scratch:

 

But as you adjust the camber, this affects the toe too.

 

I think its best to check/adjust the camber, then check/adjust the toe. Then check the camber is still correct and repeat if necessary eventually you will bring it to spec.

 

Then drive round the block to let everything settle and re-check both.

 

Ah right. so both of mine are prob out then considering I've tampered with the hubs, shocks and rack :nuts: Cheers for the info, didn't realise that.

[was8v 0]

Ah right. so both of mine are prob out then considering I've tampered with the hubs, shocks and rack :nuts: Cheers for the info, didn't realise that.

 

 

Imagine as you add more camber at the shock bolts, you are effectively pivoting the hub on the balljoint, pushing the hub further out, and in doing that the amount of toe-out is increased. :salute:

[Toad 0]

The toe is generally adjusted/corrected by the tie rods though. the toe is affected by setting the camber, then adjustments can be made with the tie rods to bring everything back in spec.

[dr_mat 0]

The toe is generally adjusted/corrected by the tie rods though. the toe is affected by setting the camber, then adjustments can be made with the tie rods to bring everything back in spec.

 

Yep. Start at the top. Given a free hand you'd adjust the castor angle first, then the camber, then the toe.

Castor isn't adjustable on these cars though.

[kvwloon 0]

this thread could be right up my street too, been having no end of trouble getting my tracking sorted.

 

mind if I jump in with my problem, to see if it's solvable in the same way described on page 1.

 

Basically, replaced steering rack and top strut mounts. Tracking miles out, but got it dead-reckoned near enough to drive to garage, bit concerned that on left had tie rod the adjustment was right near the end of the threads!, Anyway, garage set it up with no comments. Few months later noticed that on the nearside, the inner edge of the tyre was bald! Had the tyre repalced today and asked them to check the tracking, they said it was very 'out', adjusted it as far as they could but that on the left hand side they had run out of enough threads to safely adjust it.

 

So.....any ideas? Should I get the camber checked and then go from there. Checked tonight that steering / rack was centralised ok, tried winding the left hand tie rod ten turns 'in; and the right hand side ten turns 'out' to even out the threads the tie rods are set on, then reset the sterring wheel to centre, but no joy...bit baffled, always end up with the left hand tie rod right on the limit of having enough threads left for comfort. :confused4: :confused4: :confused4:

[davidwort 0]

have you got loads of adjustment left on the other side then?

if one tyre wore on the inside edge then it's not tracking but the camber on that wheel which is off (too much negative) if you had toe in then both front tyres would scrub on the inside edges.

I suggest you get the car on level ground and check the camber with a spirit level.

You haven't moved the bottom ball joints for any reason?

I'm assuming your rear wishbone bush isn't shot on one side.

[kvwloon 0]

Cheers David, any help is much appreciated! Basically I decided over last few months to replace, for various reasons (mostly getting the old gal up to a decent mechanical standard again), steering rack, main subframe, wishbones, ball joints, top strut mounts, outer cv gaiters, anti-roll bar bushes/mounts, discs and pads.....so yes, there has been plenty of scope for me screwing up the camber during all this, I just didn't think it would affect the toe so much.

 

Plan last night was to tackle this by going back to basics and checking the rack was centralised, then shift the tie rod adjustments both 'across' equally to the other side if that makes sense, but no matter what I do I'm always ending up with the right hand track rod wound right up in to the rack arm, and on the left hand side not enough threads to wind the track rod end on with enough threads for proper adjustment /safety.

 

In other words, for your question "have you got loads of adjustment left on the other side then?" Yep, that's exactly it. Loads on one side, sod all on the other (left) side. What am I looking for with the spirit level, completely level up and down?

 

Ta muchly for the advice.

[davidwort 0]

it's possible you have slightly wrongly fitted your bottom ball joint(s), they're not supposed to be used to alter camber but I'd imagine they'll have that effect if they are two far in/out on their mounting bracket in the wishbone end.

Camber can be easily checked with a spirit level and something to evenly space it off the rim edges of the wheel, I used a 2ft level and a couple of short bolts double sided sticky-taped to the level :) (obviously the tyre bulges at the bottom so you don't want to rest it on there!)

the actual specs are in another thread somewhere but -0.5 to -1 degree is about right for a 4 cylinder Corrado, i.e. top leans in /-axle-\ if it's bang upright it'll feel much less planted on cornering as it will tend to positive camber on the weighted up side.

[kvwloon 0]

it's possible you have slightly wrongly fitted your bottom ball joint(s), they're not supposed to be used to alter camber but I'd imagine they'll have that effect if they are two far in/out on their mounting bracket in the wishbone end.

Camber can be easily checked with a spirit level and something to evenly space it off the rim edges of the wheel, I used a 2ft level and a couple of short bolts double sided sticky-taped to the level :) (obviously the tyre bulges at the bottom so you don't want to rest it on there!)

the actual specs are in another thread somewhere but -0.5 to -1 degree is about right for a 4 cylinder Corrado, i.e. top leans in /-axle-\ if it's bang upright it'll feel much less planted on cornering as it will tend to positive camber on the weighted up side.

 

...all starting to make sense to me now, luckily I've got a scaffolders spirit level, which is shorter than normal and the ends sit nicely right on the flat rims either edge of the wheel. The left wheel is leaning waaaay 'out' at the top, and the right wheel is leaning waaaay 'in' at the top like so... \ -axle- \ which would totally explain my current situation with the track rod ends, one side way in, one side way out. I never realised camber could have such an effect, always thought it was quite a minute adjustment, but now I can see how much of an effect it is having. I reckon it' was down to me being a bit careless with the ball joint positions.

 

....many thanks for getting me going in the right direction (see what I did there! :) ) with this problem, it's been driving me mad, thanks to you I now know what I've done wrong, which is half the battle.

 

....one last(?!) thing, what is my best way forward to solve this, loosen off the ball joint bolts and adjust position until about right, or should camber really only be adjusted at bottom shock strut bolts?

[davidwort 0]

yeah, I'm sure I read a page from the Bentley manual or something that said the bottom ball joints should NOT be used to adjust camber, as you say, it's all done via the leg bolts, narrow ones can be bought from VW if you need more adjustment.

When I replaced my balljoints I had the wishbones off the car to fit new bushes and simply put the new balljoints in exactly the same place as the old ones came off, was easy to see as the old ones left quite a mark after bing on there for 16 years! in fact the original balljoints were still in perfectly servicable nick but I'd bought new ones so changed them anyway .

[was8v 0]

yeah, I'm sure I read a page from the Bentley manual or something that said the bottom ball joints should NOT be used to adjust camber, as you say, it's all done via the leg bolts, narrow ones can be bought from VW if you need more adjustment.

When I replaced my balljoints I had the wishbones off the car to fit new bushes and simply put the new balljoints in exactly the same place as the old ones came off, was easy to see as the old ones left quite a mark after bing on there for 16 years! in fact the original balljoints were still in perfectly servicable nick but I'd bought new ones so changed them anyway .

 

 

Thats right (see image), although you will find balljoint bolt holes are slotted allowing a bit of adjustment, and aftermarket shocks usually have slotted bolt holes too allowing adjustment.

 

I guess they are trying to get you to keep the wishbones effective length the same on both sides (hence the warning about ball joints), then adjust camber on the bottom of the shock only. However on a 15+ year old car that has been apart 100's of times, the chances of your balljoints ending up in the same place are slim!

[kvwloon 0]

excellent, thank you. Think the best thing I can do now is to put the balljoints in the mid position in their slots, and then adjust the camber on the strut as you say from there. Thanks all, great advice on this forum as ever. :)