Potential G60 headgasket failure

[jonny-5 0]

Yesterday I noticed a little bit of blue smoke from the exhaust at idle and then later on the idle seemed rough all though it still had plenty of power and driveability. Now it does use a little oil, about half a litre every couple of k - always has done, also uses some water from time to time. The engine is a pretty much standard G60 with 145,000 on it.

 

So the hunt for mayonaise started this morning. I took off the brether pipe from the cam cover and found a very small trace of mayo, but none anywhere else. I have a compression tester coming next week so I can check for sure then.

 

Sounds pretty conclusive I reckon, but can anyone give any more suggestions or ways I can check without a comp tester?

[Batty 0]

what about the valve stem seals?

[coolrado 0]

If you do lots of short journeys, a little mayo in the rocker cover or on the oil cap isn't unusual, although if its never had a headgasket or stem seals done before at 145k it would probably be worth doing anyway.

[boost monkey 0]

No offence, but that is probably the worst conclusive answer to a potential HG fail I have heard in a while.

 

Batty, it could be VSS but these would show up as a puff of smoke when the car has been started from cold. Smoking at idle will much more likely be piston rings i think.

 

The engine could be losing water as opposed to "using" it! Old pipes and corrosion can easily mean you have a weeping seal or join somewhere.

 

145k on a G60 is nothing. If you ever do take the head off you will probably still find hone marks on the bores. The engines are really lazy!

 

Until you get a compression tester it's all academic really. Halfords do the gunson one for under £20 IIRC. I've got one and it's not show-winning edition38 chrome leetness but it does the job fine. No drama.

[dirtytorque 0]

johnny-5,is the coolant system working well,i.e are the operating temperatures normal?

Any white smoke from exhaust?

Also look in the expansion tank for signs of oil getting into the water.

Any visable signs of leaks on the HG?

[coolrado 0]

145k on a G60 is nothing. If you ever do take the head off you will probably still find hone marks on the bores. The engines are really lazy!

Really?

apart from the many other engines I have rebuilt, the 4 PG blocks i have stripped down,

1 on 120ishk

2 on 145ishk

1 on 160k

all of them still had honing marks which where fine on bores 2,3 and 4, but bore 1 showed uneven wear on all of the engines, also the big end bearings on bore 1 where all more worn than the others.

 

The valve stem seals on all of the engines where brittle and worn out, although the 120k engine had been very mistreated.

 

I didnt say his headgasket was knackered but its easier to do the stem seals with the head off which obviously means doing the headgasket as well, the original fibre headgasket can leak oil for years and not actually fail completely, but personally i would rather fit a new all metal headgasket for peace of mind.

 

but as has aleady been said until a compression test has been done its all guesswork.

[ninoG60 0]

my G60 did smoke at idle when warmed up , no puff of smoke on over run, i changed valve stem seals and it was fine. i would say that it doesnt sound conclusive that you have a head gasket failure , as mentioned short journeys can cause slight mayo in the breathers etc

[boost monkey 0]

coolrado, I'm pretty sure bore 1 runs the hottest. Just the design of the block really, my #1 cyl always seems a little more battered than the rest!

[jonny-5 0]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I do a fair few shortish journies but it usually gets up to temperature fine. It does get warm quite quickly compared to most VW's of that sort of age - which is a very good thing in this wether lol and then it holds that temp nicley.

 

There's no signs of oil getting into the water, I had an idea to bridge the water pipes on the factory oil cooler and see if I could see any oil leaking out the connections on the exchanger. Could be worth doing even if to just rule it out. But surely that would only check oil in the water and not the other way round?

 

I've got a comp tester coming in the week, it's a cheapo special from ebay. So i'll wait till I get that before I make any rash decisions.

 

Thinking about it I might just go and buy a Halfords one today to save waiting - got a trade card for them now too.

[Yandards 0]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I do a fair few shortish journies but it usually gets up to temperature fine. It does get warm quite quickly compared to most VW's of that sort of age - which is a very good thing in this wether lol and then it holds that temp nicley.

 

There's no signs of oil getting into the water, I had an idea to bridge the water pipes on the factory oil cooler and see if I could see any oil leaking out the connections on the exchanger. Could be worth doing even if to just rule it out. But surely that would only check oil in the water and not the other way round?

 

I've got a comp tester coming in the week, it's a cheapo special from ebay. So i'll wait till I get that before I make any rash decisions.

 

Thinking about it I might just go and buy a Halfords one today to save waiting - got a trade card for them now too.

 

You tend to get a lot off the Gunsons stuff in Halfords with a trade card.

 

It is a worthwhile job doing the headgasket and valve stem oil seals on any G60 purely from an age point of view in my opinion. As for No. 1 running hotter the G60 has a larger water jacket on No. 1 in an effort to eliminate this issue I think it is down to the block design and the way water runs through the block given the location of the water pump next to No. 1 causing a lack of flow around the outer (cambelt) edge of that cylinder.

[jonny-5 0]

Just a quick one:

What's the best was to stop the engine from starting when doing the compression test?

 

Pull the fuel pump fuse out?

Take off one of the coil connections?

.....

[flusted 0]

take off the coil lead.

[Supercharged 2]

Hmmm - I'd say altho the G60 is designed for FI they do run *very* hot and seem to need Headgaskets around the 100 - 140k mark - obviously all depends on how they've been treated, oil etc

 

The other well known issue is that they need big end bearings changing again at around 100k where you start to get a rattle under load, if these are left then obviously it's going to start wearing the block out.

 

Great engines but obviously run much hotter and are more powerful than any other 8v units so will wear parts out a bit earlier... Best thing to do is to change these parts pro-actively, there is a reason why garages charge up to £500 to change a headgasket as if it's blown and been driven then you have a whole days worth of cleaning to do with the oil and coolant systems!

[jonny-5 0]

Thanks again for the replies, this forum is actually the best.

 

Well I went and got a comp tester from Halfords, was meant to be £20.00 but with the trade card I got it for £10.50! What a bargin (bulbs are still the best one tho - you get nearly 80% off!).

 

Anyway the results are in:

 

1 2 3 4

138, 147, 150, 147

 

Half decent I reckon, am I right in thinking that the factory oil cooler is probably at fault?

 

BTW I checked the breather again and there is a bit more mayo in there now.

[dirtytorque 0]

Thanks again for the replies, this forum is actually the best.

 

Well I went and got a comp tester from Halfords, was meant to be £20.00 but with the trade card I got it for £10.50! What a bargin (bulbs are still the best one tho - you get nearly 80% off!).

 

Anyway the results are in:

 

1 2 3 4

138, 147, 150, 147

 

Half decent I reckon, am I right in thinking that the factory oil cooler is probably at fault?

 

BTW I checked the breather again and there is a bit more mayo in there now.

is the car over heating mate?

[Toad 0]

Might be worth going for a decent run to see if that clears the moisture buildup.

 

The pressures are pretty consistent, so I would assume that a head gasket issue isn't that likely.

[jonny-5 0]

No it doesn't over heat at all.

 

I think i'm going to change the heat exchanger anyway as it's only £30 and it could do with an oil change while I'm at it. It should get a good run tonight so i'll see how it goes.

[coolrado 0]

yeah the pressures dont look too bad,

when the heat exchangers first start to fail you ususally find coolant in the oil before you see oil in the coolant, when the coolant is hot and at full pressure it is forced through the fault in the exchanger into the oil, when they completely fail it all gets mixed up and makes a mess of the oil and coolant, so it sounds quite likely it could be your exchanger.

 

Last time my head gasket failed the first thing it started doing was struggling to start or be very lumpy once started as the coolant was being forced under pressure into the cylinder once the engine had stopped, but once up to temp it was fine (well... for about 2 days until the dreaded plume of steam out the back).

[jonny-5 0]

Yeh gunna get a new exchanger in the week and go from there, probably due an oil and filter change anyway. Any reccomendations? GSF, eurocar parts? Or do I take the plunge and get a vag one?

[coolrado 0]

Might as well go for a genuine one although i have had genuine ones fom euro before, some of the vw dealers will chuck in a free filter with a tub of oil if you ask them.