OPTIMA BATTERY DRAIN....AND DEATH

[STORM 2 0]

HIYA all

 

I have a Optima YT4.2S deep cycle battery bought about 13 months ago. It started playing up a couple of months ago - and I put it down to battery drain from somewhere in the system. Being a deep cycle battery I thought it could take a few discharges and charges :shrug: I have a basic sound system, and a Clifford G4 alarm system.

The battery itself seems to be dead - I did a load test and it looks like its got one or two dead cells.

 

Anyway I've just done a drain test using an ammeter.

 

On the 10A setting I get the following display (see pic) ---0.08

 

I assume this means 0.08A drain which means 80mA drain - am I correct?

 

Fuse 22 [radio] is draining 0.03A (30mA) of its own

Fuse 21 [ interior/MFI/CL] is draining 0.02A (20mA) of its own

 

Despite removing ALL fuses on the panel - I still have 0.03 A drain?

 

My main question, I suppose, is am I interpreting the meter correctly?

Is this a significant battery drain ?

 

Cheers

[dr_mat 0]

This is about normal for a Corrado. Mine shows the same sort of magnitude - 70-80mA. I never tried to figure out which circuits are pulling it all though.

 

One issue to bear in mind is how accurate is the meter on its 10A setting when you're measuring such low currents? Probably not very.

 

The maths says: an 80mA drain will totally empty a 64Ah battery in 800 hours, which is 33 days. Bear in mind the battery will need about 20% charge to actually *start* the car and you cut that down to about 26 days. If your battery goes flat in 26 days that's a good battery.

 

How dead is the dead battery? I'd take it back if it's a deep cycle optima and it's down a couple of cells already. On the other hand a good battery conditioner might be able to recover it.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I would get your alternator checked out to make sure it's A) not outputting an AC voltage (dead rectifier) and B) giving enough current to charge the battery.

 

0.08 of an amp against a 75AH battery (for example) is nothing.

 

Did you remove the battery and put the meter across the terminals to do this load test? I'm not sure how a battery powered meter can output 10A from a pp3 battery? :scratch:

 

Personally I would take it to an Autoelectrician and get it diagnosed professionally. Killing an Optima points to quite a serious problem, assuming of course your battery wasn't a defective one - and I haven't heard of one yet.

[STORM 2 0]

hi dr_mat

 

If I charge the battery fully - the voltage across the terminals will drop to around 10.7V within 24 hours. The battery is definately screwed, but I need to know that a current drain didn't do the damage.

Apparently, letting the voltage drop below 10V on any (Optima) battery will condemn it to some extent, causing irreversible damage (official info from Optima).

The maximum amount of time I've left the battery is about 10 days (1 occasion) - battery was flat but charged up and seemed OK.

 

So you dont think 80mA is a big deal? And my problem isn't one of current drain?

 

Which means we're talking about a sub-optimal Optima :roll: to begin with?

[dr_mat 0]

So you dont think 80mA is a big deal? And my problem isn't one of current drain?

 

Like I said, 80mA won't kill a battery in one week, unless it's a ~10Ah battery, and I'll bet it doesn't say that on the side ... meaning it's probably screwed or wasn't right to begin with.. :)

 

It *is* possible that the car is generating another heavier current drain periodically (interior light comes on from time to time?), and that might be killing it off. You'd have to monitor the battery state over time (check it every few hours?) to see that, or leave an ammeter on it all the time.

 

I can't see why a deep cycle battery claims it shouldn't be totally discharged though, that's kinda the *point* of deep cycle batteries.. Ok you shouldn't *leave* it down there, but it should cope with being discharged, at least.

 

If it's just sulphated (which is what happens when you deep cycle lead-acid batteries for long periods of time) then a smart battery conditioner should be able to recover it to some extent.

[STORM 2 0]

Hiya Kev

The YTs4.2 is a 55AH battery, but I see your point.

 

The load test was done using a separate load tester not a multimeter- if I understand your query correctly.

 

According to Optima, the battery (from ident code) entered the UK supply chain in March 2007, but was given to me in August 2008. They suspect that a retailer would never hold on to a battery that long before selling it.

Optima are unhappy about this but say they can do nothing because they do not suppy the retailer in question -TAYNA- he obtains his batteries via intermediate suppliers and therefore is not an 'official' seller. TAYNA claim the 12 month warranty has expired.

 

From basic testing - the alternator seems to be charging up fine. Do you think there's something else that could kill the battery - like a faulty ignition switch say?

[dr_mat 0]

According to Optima, the battery (from ident code) entered the UK supply chain in March 2007, but was given to me in August 2008. They suspect that a retailer would never hold on to a battery that long before selling it.

Optima are unhappy about this but say they can do nothing because they do not suppy the retailer in question -TAYNA- he obtains his batteries via intermediate suppliers and therefore is not an 'official' seller. TAYNA claim the 12 month warranty has expired.

 

From basic testing - the alternator seems to be charging up fine. Do you think there's something else that could kill the battery - like a faulty ignition switch say?

 

I think the battery is probably just badly sulphated. It was probably left to discharge while in storage (for eighteen months!! that's pretty crappy), and then you put it on your car and it got drained by the normal Corrado 80mA and got worse. You can probably recover it using something like:

 

http://www.accumate.co.uk/it010003.html

 

One year warranty on an expensive battery like that? You'd have been better off getting *two* Bosch Silvers from costco!

 

I don't think there's likely to be much more wrong with it than that. The optimate will test it for you too, and if it turns out to have truly chemically bad cells then you'll have no choice but to fork out for a new one. :(

[davidwort 0]

I really don't think the storage of that optima battery before use or your usage is the problem, looks like you got a dud, whole point of those batteries is that you can store them without use and they don't deteriorate like a conventional lead acid.

For instance I regularly leave my car for a week without use and in about 14 years on the same vehicle I've had two bosch silvers (65Ah, one replaced in two years by warranty) and a fcuk-off great Hella 75Ah that lasted about 4 years, in comparison the daily used Golf has it's original 9 year old 55Ah VW battery!

My Corrado also has the sh1t dealer fitted elec windows which are live all the time! - even so I only get about 0.03 a drain with a radio, immobiliser, mfa and alarm all live.

The current drain seems a little on the high side on your car, what do you get if the starter and alternator connections are removed?

[STORM 2 0]

thanks for that link.

Is there a cheaper way of figuring out whether it's sulphation or more permanent damage? I ask cos I already have a charger/maintainer (don't know whether it 'de-sulphates') and if I'm going to be forking out £100 for a battery...........

Oh and that OPTIMATE 4 says its only recommended for batteries upto 50 AH :scratch:

[STORM 2 0]

The current drain seems a little on the high side on your car, what do you get if the starter and alternator connections are removed?

I dont' know - I will check and let you know :)

[dr_mat 0]

thanks for that link.

Is there a cheaper way of figuring out whether it's sulphation or more permanent damage?

 

All a battery tester can do is watch the discharge behaviour under load - i.e. how many volts it will hold under different loads, and how much charge it will hold can only really be tested by putting it under a load (i.e. stick a bulb on it) and time how long it'll drive it at a reasonable voltage.

 

Oh and that OPTIMATE 4 says its only recommended for batteries upto 50 AH :scratch:

 

Yeah, but only cos it's a small unit. It is geared towards bikes etc, which typically have small batteries. If you put a totally flat 75Ah battery on it, it will charge it for 48 hours then stop (it does this automatically on a timer). Just unplug it, let it cool and plug it back in and it'll finish the job. Point is it's completely adequate as a battery maintainer even for much larger batteries once the battery is mostly charged, so the idea is to leave it on the car all the time when you're not using it. You'll never replace another battery again. Or at least, that's the plan ..

[dr_mat 0]

The current drain seems a little on the high side on your car, what do you get if the starter and alternator connections are removed?

I dont' know - I will check and let you know :)

 

0.08 amps is in line with most people's comments in all the previous threads on the subject, so I don't think that's unusual.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

From basic testing - the alternator seems to be charging up fine. Do you think there's something else that could kill the battery - like a faulty ignition switch say?

 

Not quite as easy as sticking a meter on the battery with the engine running and seeing 14V I'm afraid :D

 

Every time you start the car, and especially so over Winter, voltage drops to around 6V when cranking and will spike up to 15-16V when the alternator kicks in, and then level off at 13.8-14V when running with no accessories turned on. So it's quite a hard life on the battery.

If the rectifier starts to go, you can end up sending an AC current to the battery, which will kill it quite nicely.

 

Many modern VWs (R32s, 1.8Ts etc) regularly throw a "Alternator workshop" error up on the dash, which is the alternator not charging enough. Ours did that and it was found to be giving out a rough voltage and insufficient current.

 

Optimas are made of stern stuff though. I never had any trouble with my old Yellow Top so I'm leaning towards yours being a duffer as the other guys suggested.

 

I currently use an Odyssey battery which has similar technology to the Optima and I had that sitting on the shelf for over a year and it still showed 12.1V, so I agree with David Wort, I don't buy the shelf life being the cause.

 

When you did the load test, I take it you did it with the Electric water pump off and the boot light not on? The boot light always fails on these cars and leaves the light on permanently, which you won't notice if the parcel shelf is in place.

[dr_mat 0]

The boot light always fails on these cars and leaves the light on permanently

 

This is a fact, but the boot light is 5 watts which is ~ 0.4 amps and the electric water pump is easily an amp or two. I seriously doubt that's the issue here, unless the meter is out by several hundred percent at those readings.

 

I'd also completely agree that the battery should withstand being left on the shelf for 18 months - if it was fully charged when it was stored. If it wasn't charged then it would sulphate really badly over that time.

 

Also, though it is entirely possible that the alternator's regulator can be screwy, a DC voltmeter isn't going to read 14.3 volts if the alternator is putting out AC, even damped by the current reserves of the battery. And this certainly wouldn't explain why a fully charged battery goes flat when the car hasn't been run at all for a week.

 

So I'm definitely of the opinion that it's a faulty battery (now). It's worth checking out some of the things Kev mentioned, but I doubt they'll have any impact on the situation. And I still think the battery may be recoverable with a desulphation cycle or two.

[STORM 2 0]

When you did the load test, I take it you did it with the Electric water pump off and the boot light not on? The boot light always fails on these cars and leaves the light on permanently, which you won't notice if the parcel shelf is in place.

 

Kev- I did the load test with a Draper Load tester - crude I know - but I was told they were pretty much accurate:

 

http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/100amp-Bat ... per-BLT100

 

As for the boot light, that was disconnected the day I bought the car - I'd been through that one before :)

[STORM 2 0]

OK, I've ordered the Optimate 4

I will try that before forking out another 100 odd quid to see if I can salvage what is supposed to be a decent battery.

I will let you know if it works.

 

Is it worth getting the alty professionally tested - Battery shows a voltage of 14.5V when the car is running - this drops to 14.3 if the lights+fan+stereo are switched on......?

[dr_mat 0]

OK, I've ordered the Optimate 4

 

If nothing else, you can at least hook it up to the car permanently when you're not driving it. There's a supplied stub lead that you can wire to the battery terminals permanently and leave tucked behind the grille.

 

Is it worth getting the alty professionally tested - Battery shows a voltage of 14.5V when the car is running - this drops to 14.3 if the lights+fan+stereo are switched on......?

 

Personally, I wouldn't worry about that right now, that seems reasonable to me.

[4eyes2wheels 0]

Just been looking up those Optima Yellow batteries - they're 200 quid! Yikes :shock:

 

And found out there are calcium batteries - what's all that about? What's wrong with good old acid?

[davidwort 0]

Just been looking up those Optima Yellow batteries - they're 200 quid! Yikes :shock:

 

And found out there are calcium batteries - what's all that about? What's wrong with good old acid?

 

I really don't know, I've just got a new Exide battery with a 3 yr warranty for under 40 quid :shrug:

[dr_mat 0]

And found out there are calcium batteries - what's all that about? What's wrong with good old acid?

 

Lead/Calcium batteries have a longer shelf life before needing recharge, and suffer from less gassing in use so should, in theory, have a longer working life before requiring top-up. And since you can't top up any batteries these days this could be a benefit..

 

TBH these specialist batteries seem to be geared towards people who *rarely* use them, i.e. the battery remains disconnected for long periods of time. I can't see any particular benefit (other than them being slightly better built) when used on a car if it a) gets used weekly or so and b) drains batteries anyway - unless you make *sure* you disconnect it every time you leave the car standing (and who's going to do that when it resets the ECU, the stereo and the alarm?)

 

Personally, I think a £50 lead/acid battery plus a permanently connected maintenance charger, if you can do it, will last you a hell of a lot longer than relying on smart battery tech to prevent a Corrado from draining its battery. *That* is a war you've already lost! :(

[STORM 2 0]

Ok - just a quick update for future reference...

Connected up the Optimate 4 - which basically ran through its cycle and determined that the battery 'needs replacing now' - essentially the red and amber lights come on when running through the verification cycle - so I suppose its just not holding any charge.

 

The big question is - was this damage caused by my car or has the battery always been a bit dicky when given to me?

 

MORAL : avoid TAYNA and all its online guises - you'll find that they have multiple websites for the one company as well so don't be fooled.

[dr_mat 0]

Bummer.

 

It's impossible to say whether this was a pre-existing fault or not, now. You admitted that you *have* allowed it to discharge so the damage could have been caused at those times.

Get a Bosch Silver from costco for £50 and keep it on the trickle charger when you're not using it. You'll never have to replace it again!