Problem with VR6 slightly overheating with rising Oil Pressure

[RW1 0]

Had a problem appear on the Corrado after winter storage recently.

 

Oil temp slightly up by 6'C to 112'C at motorway 70mph cruise with water up by about 3'C to 98'C. Funny thing, the oil pressure also rose by +1 bar :scratch:

 

That was from a cold start. Stop the engine at a motorway services and afterwards the same cruising would give the normal readings.

 

So quite a few checks such as plugs, VCDS diagnostics & aux water pump reveal nothing unusual.

 

So had a chatter with Yandards and came to the conclusion that a bit of sealant from the changing of the engine sump seal had fallen off and caused a blockage.

 

So decided to drop the oil filter out of the filter housing and look at the oil for black bits of sealant. Nothing :scratch:

 

So for the first time when I've done an oil filter removal on the Corrado, I looked up inside the filter housing.

 

 

WTF! 021 115 561A, I recognise that part number....... top plate part stamping of an oil filter!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47221[/ATTACH]

 

The oil filter top end plate!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47218[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]47219[/ATTACH]

 

How it should have been like.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47222[/ATTACH]

 

The assembly as it would have been in the housing. The oil pump feed outlet can be seen in the photos. The would have been spliting the old and new top end plates apart casuing a partial blockage.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47220[/ATTACH]

 

Seems, when it had one of its 4 services at VW between 1996 & 1999, someone has yanked the filter out forward due to the power steering pump rubber pipe being in the way and leaving the filter top plate inside the filter housing on the engine oil feed pipe. They had not checked all the filter had come out and used the replacement to ram the old top plate up inside to the top of the filter housing.

 

I must have disturbed the old plate enough at the pre-storage service last October just position the filter and old plate to cause a restriction this time round.

 

Removed obviously and what a different engine the VR6 is now, not just the readings above returning to the normal above but also rapid oil cooling if the temp is raised and then the engine allowed to coast, smoother engine and a grinding noise its had for years (oil pump forcing against a partial blockage) has gone.

 

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[Critical_Mass 10]

Scary really considering it could have starved the engine. Especially considering you found the problem on the off chance.

 

Glad you found it though mate, there are some cowboys out there!

[Supercharged 2]

Blimey - so you think it's been in there some time then?? I was expecting you to say it must have been left accidentally on the last oil change!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

If the PAS pipes are in the standard position, there's no need to yank the filter out. It drops out of the housing more than enough to prevent that from happening. Either the fitter was a complete idiot or you had a duff filter I'd say!

 

Very odd though, never seen a failed filter before!

[RW1 0]

Blimey - so you think it's been in there some time then??

Since the second service at VW Harrogate in May 1997 at 18,500 miles where they split brake fluid all down the inside channel carrying the fuel pipes from the tank and that part of the engine bay.

 

After that I started getting oil weepage from the sump gasket, oil cooler seal to the engine block, the bottom forward corner of the plate carrying the engine crank seal and the timing chain case cover split where the head gasket comes out round the chains. Been chasing the leaks ever since and not winning. Despite renewing the sump gasket last August with sealant added, it started weeping again.

 

Inspection today and thats all gone! No oil weeping out. Plus around that time I started having hotter running on the motorway cruising ie. oil at 114'C.

 

Now its 106'C and knocking about yesterday it dropped regularly to 96'C at slower coasting speeds.

 

Now here's the filter installation/power steering pipes alignment. It isn't assembled wrongly. The rubber pipe is shapped and lies naturally where it is clipped. There is even a production white marks on the hose for positioning the engine speed sensor wire clip, so it can't go any other way.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47231[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47232[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47233[/ATTACH]

 

The monkey will have only have got half the filter length out before the power steering rubber pipe stops it dropping further. Then by pulling forwards to the bumper to avoid the rubber steering hose, the filter will cack handedly come out in a forward turning motion. I reckon someone has yanked it forward and broken the glue adhesive between the filter and its top plate. So the plate was left on the oil feed pipe hidden from view.

 

Not me as I've always checked what comes out is whole.

 

There is no mention in the blue VW engine manual or the blue VW Service manual to remove the clip and move the rubber power steering hose out of the way. But without doing that, the filter and cap will not drop vertically and be free of the filter housing. So the only way out is by a gentle twist forward if the clip is not freed.

 

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Edited June 10, 2011 by RW1

[Supercharged 2]

Yeah the G60 is the same - it's becuase the car wasn't designed around the engines.

 

You have to take the RHS headlight out to get to the G60 filter and unless I use a carrier bag I end up with oil all over the metal water and pas pipework.

[Alex_G60_Fanatic 0]

Yeah the G60 is the same - it's becuase the car wasn't designed around the engines.

 

You have to take the RHS headlight out to get to the G60 filter and unless I use a carrier bag I end up with oil all over the metal water and pas pipework.

 

Due to the 45 degree angle I ALWAYS smack a screwdriver through it to get it off... So i tend to get oil on everything! :lol:

[Jim 1]

After that I started getting oil weepage from the sump gasket, oil cooler seal to the engine block, the bottom forward corner of the plate carrying the engine crank seal and the timing chain case cover split where the head gasket comes out round the chains. Been chasing the leaks ever since and not winning. Despite renewing the sump gasket last August with sealant added, it started weeping again.

 

Inspection today and thats all gone! No oil weeping out..

 

So were you getting oil weeping out because the system was over-pressurised?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

But when the filter holder is resting on the rubber hose, it's already detached itself from the tube inside filter housing. He must have pulled it forward literally as the last thread of the holder was undone. Even then I still can't see this happening.

 

I still say you had a duff filter.

 

---------- Post added at 02:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 PM ----------

 

So were you getting oil weeping out because the system was over-pressurised?

 

Shouldn't be as the oil pump has a pressure relief valve in it.

[RW1 0]

I reckon so. I mean what is a 3 year old engine in 1997/98 suddenly starting to lightly sweat and be wet with oil films at various points around the engine. Ever since then, I've had to occassionally wipe the engine down. Its gradually got worse until about 5 years ago it started pluming down over steering rack and the underside of the floor pan.

 

But the oil pressure gauge in the filter head wasn't showing it THAT high. That dial just read +1bar or normally expected pressures at running temps of 2 bar idle, 4.5 bar at 3,000+rpm But who knows what was going on inside the engine oil galleries. Another thing thats a little quieter are the hydraulic tappets.

 

The main thing is the grinding noise has gone. Sounded like a milling machine working metal. That noise came from lower down in the engine... oil pump working against a blockage and the gears mashing the oil.

 

The engine very different yesterday from how its been for years. So smooth...........

 

.

 

---------- Post added at 02:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 PM ----------

 

But when the filter holder is resting on the rubber hose, it's already detached itself from the tube inside filter housing. He must have pulled it forward literally as the last thread of the holder was undone. Even then I still can't see this happening.

 

I still say you had a duff filter.

 

---------- Post added at 02:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 PM ----------

 

 

Shouldn't be as the oil pump has a pressure relief valve in it.

 

Not on mine, the filter is still engaged on the engine oil feed pipe. I have to push the hose out of the way to get extra drop to free the filter off the engine oil feed pipe.

 

There may be a relief valve in the pump but that doesn't stop the oil pump generating higher oil pressures than 7 bar. I know off one VR6 oil pump relief valve plunger jammed in the fully open position. When cold the pump was still raising oil pressures to the point it was forcing hydraulic tappets to open without the help of the cams.

 

This happened because the middle oil gallery on which the piston oil cooling jets are located was blocked and so caused back pressure which the relief valve couldn't cope with. The only place the pressure could force more easily was the tappets and cam upper oil gallery.

 

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Edited June 10, 2011 by RW1

[Supercharged 2]

What oil do you use Chris?

[RW1 0]

Castrol Magnetec 15w40 for the last 6 changes since 2000.

 

previously Castrol Magnetec 15w40 x 6 own servicing.

previously Quantum Synta Gold x 2 put in by dealers at my request.

previously unknown at dealers x 2

 

Some of the changes in oil types have been driven by the weeping and being narked by it, thinking the oil was the cause. Ie Synta Gold to Castrol Magnetec

 

 

Also if you look closely at the end plate of the filter, there is a distinct fold across it, which I didn't do extracting it, suggesting that the fliter cartridge was rotated sideways, ripping the top plate off. Could have been the oil pressure while it was at the top but I have my doubts as its quite stiff to bend.

 

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Edited August 29, 2011 by RW1

[Yandards 0]

Good to see the photos Chris.

 

Kev, The VR6 oil filter housing was a brand new design for the mechanics back when it was introduced, couple that with the low sales of that engine in either Golfs, Corrados and Ventos and there is a good chance this was the first time the dealer mechanic had been anywhere near the VR6 engine since introduction.

 

I would put some money on more folks having exactly the same issue on the hotter VR6s.

 

As for the 4 cylinder design, they all drop oil over the front of the engine but the G60 is worse due to the lower radiator hose arrangement.