Vr6 experts please help.

[timthetinyhorse 0]

As anyone who has red my previous post about my corrado not starting this issue is starting to bug me now.

 

The car will not start no matter what I try.

 

The last time it was started was over a month ago and the AA managed to start it by turning it over for an age on a booster and it eventually fired and ran lumpy for a while ukntill it got warm and appeared ok.

 

I have now been trying since then to start it again, it's had new leads, coil pack, blue temp sender and new vac line on the fuel pressure regulator.

 

Now the one thing I noticed today was the exceptionally strong smell of fuel from the engine bay when trying to start it....the smell is very very strong but I can't work out where it's coming from so this is leading me to think I have a fueling problem.

 

I was having a poke about and I found the pipe in the pic below loose, I removed it and found it wet and stinking of fuel, is this linked to the fuel system?? I wouldn't have expected to have fuel at the inlet manifold.

 

 

If anyone can give me any further advice here I would be over the moon, could I have a blocked fuel filter? Blocked fuel line?? Iv had a good look for a fuel leak and can see anything at all.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[gc 0]

You might need to check or replace the crank position sensor. First check the connector to make sure there isn't any corrosion, it's one of the two connectors just above the front engine mount bracket. If that doesn't work you might want to replace the sensor, it bolts up to the front of the engine block with a small m6 bolt. I believe that is one of the few signals that the engine management system absolutely must have in order to run. Most of the other sensors have either default values or other solutions so the engine will run but not as well as it would normally.

 

GC

[timthetinyhorse 0]

I presume I could have got this wet when I lost a load of coolant when changing the blue temp sender?? Is there any way to diagnose the sender???

[Mawrick 0]

I presume I could have got this wet when I lost a load of coolant when changing the blue temp sender?? Is there any way to diagnose the sender???

 

If you have VAG-COM and are able to diagnose the car while running I presume the sensor should throw an error if faulty (however this sender will always throw an error if the car isn't running), and as GC says this sensor is vital to the operation of the car - as if it doesn't get correct signal from it it will cut off fuel supply (IIRC).

 

I also had much fuel smell in engine bay, and was hard to "find" but actually turned out to be leaking from the fuel supply line (the 2 lines that goes into the fuel rail), but what made it hard to pin point was that it only seem to be leaking at "startup" - when the engine have fired and there was steady fuel supply it seem to leak less at least, so worth checking out. (have someone look at them while cranking), it might be hard to see that leak anyway, as it might just drop a bit, and it goes down on the alternator :)

[Harrier 1]

Step 1 . Do you have a spark at plugs . Unplug a lead ,fit a plug to the lead & earth it. Get someone to crank over engine.No spark ? Ignition fault likely.scan on vag-com worthwhile

[tonytiger 0]

I think the loose pipe you've found is part of the vacuum system - but it's been so long since I didn't anything useful on my car I can't honestly remember. It certainly won't help if it was loose though - so needs reconnecting properly.

 

However, as has been said - if you haven't already, you MUST get this on diagnostics to see if it highlights any errors. I'd strongly recommend getting VAGCOM(VCDS) yourself (assuming you have access to a laptop) - or appealing for somebody local with vagcom to assist you. Apart from checking for fault codes, you can check some of the values that the sensors are returning/ecu sees.

[Overmind 10]

The loose pipe you have found is the vacuum pipe for the brake servo, it should not be covered in fuel. I would think it likely that you have no sparks at the plugs. So fuel is just being pumped in and not burning. I would suggest removing all of the spark plugs and checking them, if they are wet and smell of fuel then you know you are at least getting some fuel into the cylinders. Then clean the plugs up, make sure the electrode gaps look roughly the same (unless you have a set of feeler gauges and then gap them appropriately.)

 

You can remove a plug and fit it to a lead and earth it like previously mentioned.

 

BUT **please be aware that if there is neat fuel in the cylinders then when you turn the engine over it will come out of the open hole you just removed the spark plug from, and if the plug you are holding does spark near enough to the fuel......**

So if you are going to test it that way please be careful. You can buy cheap testers from euro car parts and halfords and the like which you plug into the ht lead and earth it and it lights up, this gives a better indication in my opinion and is safer.

 

Is your car fitted with a distributor or coil pack?

 

VAG-COM will always list a fault code for the crank position sensor on OBD1 engines if the engine isn't running. The usual symptoms of a faulty CPS are the engine will fire for a second and then cut out.

 

Hope this helps.

Bryn.

[robrado974 1]

Also if you do a search , it will come up with my engine problems i had with no start . RW1 sorted it for me , mine was ecu connection , worth checking ,it had some corrosion in it . Rob

[apd vr 10]

does it bump on a rolling start?can rule out other things?

[timthetinyhorse 0]

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'm happy I have a spark at cylinder 1 and the coil pack and leads are brand new so I'm confident I have a spark at the other 5, I have fuel that's for sure due to the smell however I'm going to pull the plugs again tomorrow to make sure it's making it to the cylinders and that I don't have a leak.....I have had a look and can't find on though but best to double check this.

 

Ecu connection could well be worth me looking at also due to the fact the car was stood outside in the snow and elements for over a month before I managed to get it into the garage, am I correct in thinking that the ecu is under the plastic cover on the passenger side? I presume the connection that goes bad is here?

 

I have also had the battery on charge since yesterday and will leave it on until I get to working on it tomorrow to make sure I'm getting a full 12v to the coil.

 

Priced up a crank sensor and I'm looking around £35 so before I spend the money I will get the multimeter out and test the resistance on the pins to make sure the sensor is damaged, if it's anything but perfect I will replace it :-)

 

Bloody irritating me this fault as I plan on doing a full rebuild next winter so only need it to be good for the summer months and then it's coming off the road for a full rebuild but hell that's corrado ownership, and let's face it I'm learning all the time so at some point in the future I will be able to advise people as you guys are advising me :-)

 

Thanks for all the advice guys, this forum is a bloody good resource and the only one I have actually used where people are genuinely interested in getting other peoples cars up and running, love the corrado world!! Can't wait to meet some of you once the red old girl is running and I hear that awesome exhaust note once again.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

 

---------- Post added at 12:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ----------

 

Havny tried bumping it bud as its in the garage and it's a serious job pushing it in and out due to the slight slope and step into the garage.

[robrado974 1]

Hi mate , check conections at both ends of ecu , I did all the checks for electrical and fuel , used a multimeter and stuff , still would not start, i cleaned ecu ,put the plugs back on and she fired .i have a crank senser that works fine , if you need it , as i replaced it without needing to . Rob

[Supercharged 2]

Mate - in future can you keep everything in one thread if it's related to the same issue - makes it very difficult to track the history or the problem and what has been tested / changed already...

 

Last time it was the coil pack wasn't it??? Had this been changed?

 

What about the ignition switch, Fuse 18 and ECU and fuel pump relays? Has it got an alarm fitted?

 

The way a VR engine starts is the ECU relay is powered from the ignition switch and while cranking, the ECU waits for a signal from the crank sensor (G28) and then activates the Fuel Pump relay which in turn activates the fuel pump and lambda heating with power supplied from fuse 18.

 

Although it's always a good idea to read the DTC's via VAGCOM, you will always throw up an error with G28 when the engine is not running.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Supercharged

[lee55233 0]

I'm having same trouble with my 93 vr6, how much do you want for the sensor robrado974?, I've had snap on diagnostic on, which first showed a lot of faults which all cleared apart from crank sensor, I've put a meter on pins 1-2 and have open circuit, I've read it should be 500-1000 ohms, where is the ecu?

[timthetinyhorse 0]

Sorry bud yeah will try stick to one thread, I have changed coil and leads and at the moment I'm sure I have fuel as its flooding.

 

Would this mean as I'm getting fuel the crank sensor is ok (I'm going to check it anyhow tomorrow)

 

As for the relay, where are they located?? I tried looking around the driver footwell but with the car being in the garage it's very hard to even get through the door to look for things. What number is the relay?

 

Cheers

[robrado974 1]

I'm having same trouble with my 93 vr6, how much do you want for the sensor robrado974?, I've had snap on diagnostic on, which first showed a lot of faults which all cleared apart from crank sensor, I've put a meter on pins 1-2 and have open circuit, I've read it should be 500-1000 ohms, where is the ecu?

Hi mate will see if tim needs it first as i did offer it to him , also did you have engine running with test ? crank senser will show fault if engine is not running .

[lee55233 0]

It wasn't running but it was cranking for 20-30 seconds which the diagnostic told us to do and then confirmed that was only fault, I got a new sensor from eurocarparts and took the faulty one off but when I compared them the plug was slightly bigger so I took that back and ordered another from someone breaking a car on eBay and ordered an ignition switch at same time

The ignition switch came so I swapped that and tried it,but it didn't start(forgot I took the sensor off!)

Put the sensor back on and tried it and it started straight away ticked over for 15-20 mins, then I switched off and started again a couple of times cranked a bit more than usuall but still started, drove round the block seemed ok

Tried to start next day and back to square one, cranks with no start!

Edited March 15, 2013 by lee55233
Crank sensor done the job for me!

[Harrier 1]

Now you have established you have a spark & fuel it could be the engine flooded.Could try a new set of plugs & try starting with fully charged battery & accelerator pedal to floor,& or a tow start

[timthetinyhorse 0]

Ok so I just got the meter on the crank sensor and I have 512ohm between 1 & 2 then nothing over the other pins so looks like the sensor is good.....the ecu plug looks good but will give it some wd40 and clean the plugs up and try again......just to confirm the crank sensor is the 3 pin plug and the sensor is held in place with a small cap head bolt?

 

Cheers

 

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------

 

Another update, after turning and turning the car eventually fired but was running so rough it couldn't hold idol and the throttle was very very sensitive.....it feels like its not firing properly.....any ideas?

 

One thing I do notice however I could be wrong is that I have nothing at the rev gauge until it fires, am I correct in thinking the crank position sensor reads this?

 

Cheers

[Supercharged 2]

Have you checked the 2 relays (109 and 167 I think)?? They are above the fuses in the fusebox, behind shelf in drivers side foot-well - it's in the instruction manual..

 

Also - the coolant temp sensor you fitted - was it genuine? Maybe worth testing the resistance of this also.

[timthetinyhorse 0]

Have you checked the 2 relays (109 and 167 I think)?? They are above the fuses in the fusebox, behind shelf in drivers side foot-well - it's in the instruction manual..

 

Also - the coolant temp sensor you fitted - was it genuine? Maybe worth testing the resistance of this also.

 

Will check those relays now, what am I looking for when I check them?

 

I just pulled the plugs out again and they were dry but black again.

 

Cheers

 

---------- Post added at 2:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 1:24 PM ----------

 

I managed to find relay 109 but not 167, I do however have 67. Both were seated correctly and the pins were

 

The other news from today is after a lot of fighting with the car it started but was very very rough and wouldn't idol, if I tried to hold it a 2k rpm it would drop to 1500 as if it had cut out then pic back up to 2k, drop again and so on,

What I noticed was that the manifold got very hot very very quickly and that there was a very nasty smell at the same time so here is the theory.

I have changed the coil and leads and also checked the plugs and they are good and getting a spark, I have fuel so I'm also happy with that. The car now starts after a min or so but is rough and struggles to build revs unless you give it the boot, I'm thinking that the new coil pack and leads were the solution but due to the flooding I have caused over the past weeks there has been a large amount of fuel in the cat and this has melted it and is now causing a large amount of back pressure not allowing the engine to run properly.

The cat could have been damaged when the aa managed to start it on the old coil pack over a month ago and it was running rich due to the damaged blue temp sender and then all of times the car was trying to fire but not holding it.

I can't prove this until next week now as I'm back to work for 4 days however I'm feeling confident that I'm getting to the root of the problem especially after getting the car to fire today and the large amount of heat that built up so fast in the manifold.

 

Cheers

[timthetinyhorse 0]

Quick update for today invade anyone else is having similar problems.

 

I managed to wrestle the cat off today and found that it was badly chocked up and melted in places so I'm pretty confident this could be my issue.

 

I had to cut the sensor wires as I couldn't get the plug out but this shouldn't be an issue as I presume the new sensor comes with a cable back to the plug.

 

Thanks for all the help guys.

 

Rob

[timthetinyhorse 0]

Got bored today so turned the key to see what would happen with the cat and lambda removed, guess what, it started first turn of the key!!

 

Just need to order a lambda and decat now and I'm go go go.

[timthetinyhorse 0]

Ok so we're onto the next step now, I have the decat pipe fitted so I tried the car again today as I had to move it a little (it has no lambda in yet) it started straight away no problems and idols at 1k but when I tried to move it ie used about 1500-2000rpm when I put the clutch back in it drops to idol speed then cuts out.

Once it cuts out its hard to get started again, once it does start the idol appears to be ok though, if I leave the car over night and try again it starts fine so I have a couple of questions......

 

Could not having the lambda fitted be causing this issue as the exhaust isn't functioning correctly?

 

Could my isv have given up on me and if so how is it removed and cleaned?

 

Could my throttle cable cause this? I seem to remember adjusting it so it was tight when I out the inlet back on and I'm wondering if it could cause an idol issue? (I moved the clip closer to the backed so that there was no play) I ask this as my throttle feels very snatchey.

 

Any info would be great as I'm beginning to loose my patience with the car now and throw it on eBay as iv had enough, car has been in the garage for over a month now and I just simply can't get the car running.

 

Cheers

[lewvw 10]

Did you check the fuel pump and ecu relays?

[mattwelcer 0]

I am pretty sure a Lambda is necessary for the car to run "properly" as it tells the ECU if the exhaust gas is rich or lean, therefore the fuelling is adjusted by the ECU.

I think at idle the Lambda is not being used.

 

I think if the ISV was faulty your idle wouldn't be stable and the throttle cable shouldn't have any impact either.