Quick help - timing 9a 16v

[sam2.0 10]

Just redoing my timing, both cam covers off. Only 1 mark on flywheel, which is at TDC, not -6degrees.

 

How would you do it?

[Wullie 1]

This may help 2nd post

 

http://the-corrado.net/showthread.php?44983-changing-9A-timing-belt&highlight=%2Btiming+%2Bbelt

[Supercharged 2]

Do you mean static or dynamic timing? to set static timing you only need the TDC mark

[sam2.0 10]

Not really, as the car is meant to be setup for BTDC, but with only 1 mark its likely to be TDC.

 

There is an other guide saying that BTDC is 2 teeth before the TDC line, so guess I'm going to do that. I done the line last night and it won't turn start, just coughs a little.

[destructiv dave 0]

Sam,

 

Set the static timing up to TDC as set out in the link provided by Wullie. The BTDC is the dynamic timing and is controlled by moving the distributor. You will need a timing light for this. Don't change the static timing to BTDC.

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

David

[sam2.0 10]

I understand, but why do other guides tell me to set the static timing to BTDC then?

 

I'm still unsure as to the mark on my fly wheel, its a line, not a 0. In the other guides, the 0 is TDC, but as I've not got it, I think the line means 0, but it may not!

 

The line on the flywheel matches the line on the pulley.

[davidwort 0]

yep, as said just time everything up on TDC marks for the engine/mechanical timing.

Ignition timing is then controlled (plenty of adjustment) by twisting the dizzy which will not affect the moving bits in the engine.

Always, always, turn it over by hand a couple of times by the crank pulley bolt as you can get a lot of bent valves on a 16v otherwise!

If you have a non adjsutable timing light then a mark on the 6 deg BTDC can be used for setting ignition timing HTH

There might be another mark on the flywheel, a dot on the side of a tooth?

Edited March 11, 2013 by davidwort

[sam2.0 10]

This is going well against everything else I've read!

 

I have been turning it over by hand, ensuring its all still lined up. I've also pressure tested it, and its all fine, so hopefully no bent valves.

 

Not sure how I check timing with a light, if I can't get the engine to run!

[Supercharged 2]

What else have you read???

 

Maybe time to check compression

[destructiv dave 0]

Hi Sam,

 

Do you have any links to these other sources that say to set up the static timing to BTDC? Would be interested to view.

 

From my experience, the timing concept is the same as that used on every engine (going out on a limb, and may be disproved by some strange Eastern Bloc machinery), be it air-cooled boxer engine, Chevvy V8 etc. Static timing has nothing to do with the car being able to start - it simply ensures that the top and bottom half of the engine are in the same stage of the combustion cycle. On an interference engine (like the 16v) severe damage can be done if the marks are not aligned.

 

Once you have the belt on with all pulleys at TDC, then you can move onto getting the car started and timed. You say it won't start now. I'm assuming it ran before you changed the timing belt. Did you touch anything like the position of the dizzy? Are the plugs going to the correct spark plug?

 

David

[sam2.0 10]

What else have you read???

 

Maybe time to check compression

 

I have checked compression, all between 185 and 195.

 

 

Dave,

 

http://the-corrado.net/showthread.php?45364-Help-needed-ignition-timing-on-a-9a-16v

http://the-corrado.net/showthread.php?79760-Flywheel-marks-What-is-correct!

 

I actually changed the HG, since putting it back together it doesn't start. I've not messed with the dizzy at all. Plugs are correct. spark 1 is top left of the dizzy cap.

 

I do get sparks and fuel into the cylinder bore.

 

Maybe tonight I'll try and get the timing on the dizzy changed, I've marked what it was before all of this work, so I can always go back to the start if need be.

[destructiv dave 0]

In both those links, the reference to BTDC is in respect of ignition timing, not the static timing.

[sam2.0 10]

So to confirm my POA, confirm TDC (I done it yesterday, I can just double check its all A-ok), then play with the dizzy and a timing light. Do I need to do anything, I've seen someone saying about 2500rpm is the sweet spot to get it bang on, once I get it started obviously.

 

To help me understand a bit more as well. Can I assume the car previously has been setup incorrectly? It worked before and I've not messed with the dizzy, so would the crank have been not on TDC? Would this also cause it to run rich? It's always shot fuel out of the exhaust, it pops along like a trooper!

[Supercharged 2]

If it worked before then you just need to set the static timing up and it should run fine again

[sam2.0 10]

That's what I've been trying to do. This is why I'm asking about the BTDC, as its not working on TDC. Last night I took the belt completely off and started with static timing again, aligned it all and bolted back together, it would cough even few seconds on trying to start. I figured it's because its a tooth or 2 out.

Edited March 11, 2013 by sam2.0

[davidwort 0]

the timing marks should all line up, period. Ignore the whole 6 deg BTDC thing, that mark (on some flywheels) is just there to set up base ignition timing with a non-adjustable gun.

I've done 1.8 and 2.0 16v blocks loads of times.

The only other issues I can think of are a sheared woodruff key on the cam pulley or crank pulley or the cam to cam timing out.

 

So, you should have cyl 1 at tdc (dowel/rod in spark plug hole)

cam pulley inner mark level with surface of cam cover/head

front timing mark on cam pulley straight up

lower belt pulley mark aligned with cambelt cover arrow

intermediate shaft doesn't matter on 16v

flywheel mark level with V notch on gearbox casing

ditributor arm aligned with mark on side of metal body

 

plugs/leads 1342 anti-clockwise (as dizzy is driven off exhaust cam) from mark on dizzy body

 

 

petrol

compression

spark

 

???

 

Oh, ignore the ignition timing at 2,500rpm thing, that's only for digifant engines, 16v's are at idle warm with rad fan off

[sam2.0 10]

Cam pulley woodruff is 100% ok, I checked yesterday.

 

The rest of the points are exactly what I done yesterday, there is petrol in the bore and sparks work.

 

With the flywheel on TDC, piston 1 is at its highest and the mark matches the crank pulley, so I can't imagine the woodruff key on that is damaged.

 

So, what else could it be?

[davidwort 0]

can you post a pic of the dizzy with the cap off?

so going back again, does it fire but not run now?

 

I once had my kjet 16v fail to run after a long period of an engine rebuild, in the end it required nothing more than several primes of the pump to get the system pressurised to start, it wouldn't do it by just cranking and cranking, we turned the ignition on and off again several times before engaging the starter

Edited March 11, 2013 by davidwort

[sam2.0 10]

I haven't got a photo of the dizzy, but I am going to be trying again tonight so will take shots of everything.

 

The engine turns over and trys to start, it does catch after 15 seconds but won't keep catching enough to turn its self over, as if its not quite catching the timing correctly (again leading me to the -6degrees).

[Wullie 1]

Just had a really daft thought. When you are trying to start it is all the pipework from the airbox to the engine in place as airleaks would cause your symptoms. There is quite a large pipe under the induction hose which goes to the overrun cut of valve which is easy to miss and will cause a pretty massive air leak. Or maybe the 2.0 is different and I'm talking out of my rectum.

[sam2.0 10]

There are 2 pipes just under an inch wide that both connect to te airbox, these are both connected.

 

The inlet to the air box, at the back towards the bottom, has nothing connected but never has. Should it? I Imagine it'd have something

 

To add: tdc again with some help to hold belts firm and nothing. Moved the dizzy by hand just to try, so next I'll buy a timing light.

Edited March 11, 2013 by sam2.0

[davidwort 0]

Pipe in back of air box is just warm air pickup, should have flexi pipe to exhaust manifold but not essential. As long as no air leaks after metering head, e.g. Vac pipes or breather, then you'll b ok.

[sam2.0 10]

Played with the timing light tonight, with it rotated clockwise to its maximum, it was just about firing.

 

If I need a few more degrees on the dizzy, do I just move the timing around 1 tooth?

[davidwort 0]

Sounds like the belt has jumped a tooth or two, I get confused myself with the dizzy being the other end of the head, but if the cam pulley jumped forward a tooth or two then the distributor would still be 'in time' with the exhaust cam as it is mechanically connected to it but the engine top and bottom would be out of time, likewise you change the engine timing if you move the belt a tooth but the distributor doesn't change it's relationship to the cams, unlike the 8v where the intermediate shaft can be turned separately to alter just the distributor position.

I'd still like to see pics of all your timing marks to compare, there's plenty of range on the dizzy adjustment, there's a big problem if it seems to need to go further.

[sam2.0 10]

Lets assume my timing marks are all correct, which they are. What could cause this?

 

The dizzy was at its max movement, the car ran lumpy for 5-10 seconds then died, after that we couldn't get it going again. We were wondering if its been flooded, as it was being 'started' for a few minutes with no success (while I was adjusting the dizzy). It may have been that I was too far clockwise when it caught and it really needed to go back towards centre, but I didn't get to do it in time, when the dizzy is centred, using the timing light, it lines up with the TDC mark on the flywheel.

 

My feeling before trying this is that someones set the timing up very badly previously. In a way that the marking were all retarded by several/many teeth, and they'd just adjusted the dizzy to compensate. So by me making the timing to TDC meant the dizzy was well off.