matth76

Hi guys. Ok I've spoken to the Phirm and they too couldn't believe the bottom chain nor clutch was changed when the gearbox was out. They are going to have a good listen to it this Saturday to ensure there is no rattle what so ever (to at least give me confidence that the top chain and its parts were indeed fitted). They did see my car a month or so ago and were the first to notice the chain rattle. Therefore they should be able to make a good comparison of 'before' and 'after' condition. They too said the flat spot is highly likely to be a sensor fault and not the bottom chain and Stealth said it would not be the bottom chain causing the flat spot either. However until it is hooked up to VAG COM and they can see my car in person the flat spot remains a mystery. Basically IF the Phirm say there is no chain rattle whatsoever then I am going to leave the bottom chain as is. I'm not going to spend £600 if it doesn't need it at this time. I will however be taking my car to Stealth for the rolling road and very possibly a remap. I'm p*ssed off that my clutch wasn't done when the gearbox was out because that is going to cost me when it comes to needing to be done! When that occasion happens I may think about getting the chains looked at by either the Phirm or Stealth (depending on what the extra cost is to gain access to the chains while the gearbox is out). Anyone know approximately? I also spoke to Storm today and they were still adament the bottom chain and its tensioners will never need replacing. They even said they would put it in writing that if the bottom chain or it's parts fail causing an engine failure they will buy and fit a brand new engine (can anyone give guidelines on how they should word it (not too long but including the major points that they should write - as I do lack knowlege in this area!). I am going to be definitely picking this up from them in writing. They did say they would fit the bottom chain and its parts free of labour which was very good of them I will admit. They are yet to get back to me with what the parts will cost - anyone know? However I am not going to go ahead with it mainly because I will have no proof that they have done the work and I could be wasting £200 on parts which aren't being replaced. Anyway hopefully the Phirm have good news for me on Saturday and can tell me the chain rattle has disappeared and can hopefully diagnose what is causing my flat spot. What a bl**dy hassle all of this!

Before the work was carried out it was word of mouth (which is useless I know) where they said they would do the chains. This I took meant they would be doing all of them (as most garages I have since found out do do). When they handed me the invoice after the work was done it initially only said "head gasket and tensioners set" which they told me included timing chains. I asked them to actually write on the invoice that this included timing chains as it was a bit vague and I would need it clear for when I sell the car in the future one day. It was then that they put only "top timing chain". I asked them about this (bear in mind I am a lamen and don't know a lot about timing chains - at least I didn't then) and they said the bottom one and its tensioners never need doing as they're much tougher. I (as would any customer) assumed they are right..being the garage. It is only after I have paid them, gotten home and rung around and found out that the normal/common course of action IS to do the parts related to the bottom chain as well as the top (especially if the gearbox has come out). I am going to attempt to get them to fit the parts for the bottom chain (I will pay for the parts of course) but the labour should be free. Then I will get Stealth to check over everything. However I suspect they will be unwilling to do it for free labour. Either way I'm taking it to Stealth to check it all. In a way I'm reluctant to let them near my car again - even though it will cost me £600 (which does include a new clutch and rolling road) I would rather Stealth did the remaining bottom chain and have a good look at the top chain and the parts Storm fitted. What is a leak down test on the head gasket? I'm assuming "lifting the head" to check the head gasket is a lengthy process? What a hassle! I only wish I had known more about what is involved in replacing timing chains and what parts are replaced.

Would there be a way for Stealth to check that the head gasket was properly sealed without taking it all apart? Is this what a compression test would show? The last thing I need is a head gasket blowing 6 months down the road. By the way before Storm did the work I had no idea they were only replacing one of the chains. I only found out AFTER I got the invoice and it said top timing chain. As far as I was concerned they were "doing my timing chains" which I 'assumed' would be all of the chains. Is there some kind of body I can contact to 'get' them to do the bottom timing chain free of labour BECAUSE they should have done it in the first place?? Or will it come to nothing? From my understanding Trading Standards aren't helpful in these cases? Is there a similar body that I can contact for info on this?

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies. Right, I phoned Stealth today and have booked my car in. They too were very surprised the bottom chain and it's parts weren't replaced. All in all I'm not going back to the garage again. They may well be good but they should have done the bottom chain as well (or at least have told me before hand that one of the chains wasn't going to be done!). Their mistake is now costing me £600. Stealth couldn't understand why on earth the bottom chain and its parts weren't done when the gearbox was out... nor can I!! Vince also said the bottom chain is actually more prone to breaking than the top one due to it being thinner - although it is very rare for it to break he said. Vince didn't know what the flat spot was due to but they are going to do my bottom chain and all its parts plus new clutch and check over my car and new s/s exhaust manifold that Storm fitted... just to make sure everything else is in order and to fix my flat spot and that the top chain that the garage fitted and all it's parts are new. Also getting it rolling roaded. Costing me £616 all in (inc. vat)... which hurts but is going to be worth it to have my car back to how it was and with the knowledge the chains are now 'completely' done.

Hi If my car (golf VR6 odb2) has a full remap at Stealth using their Dastek unichip can it allow me (if desired) to have more torque at the expense of having less top end bhp power? Ideally I want to have good torque figures to aid acceleration; I'm not as bothered about bhp or top end speed. Is this possible? Can a remap allow the bhp figures to be manipulated (obviously by adjusting fuel / air etc) to generate higher torque figures by reducing bhp slightly? Thanks Matt

Thanks for your replies guys. It could be very possible that they removed my top timing chain without removing the gear box. I was having the head gasket done at the same time so they could have had access to the top chain with the head off. To have a head gasket done and top timing chain cost me £650 which still seems good considering a head gasket replacement on its own is normally around £400-£500. If they had taken the gear box out then I certainly agree it wouldn't make sense not replacing parts for the bottom chain. I suspect my flat spot is down to the fuelling air mixture as they did adjust my fuelling when they had my car in. They had to reduce it slightly as my car was overfuelling. I suspect they reduced it a tiny bit too much. My car is going back in with them anyway to have the head gasket bolts tightened and to check for any oil leaks as I have done the routine 500 miles since having it fitted so will get them to re-adjust the fuelling. I'll be there while they do all the work so will take it for a test drive to see if it eliminates the flat spot. I think it seems too much of a coincidence that they reduced my fuelling and after I pick my car up there is a flat spot in a certain rev range and it is a tiny bit lumpy too in the low revs when I pull off from a roundabout. Following all this (if successfull!) I'll be getting a full remap at Stealth to get the most out of my mods!

No I've not had any new cams put in. I only asked as another forum mentioned my flat spot could be because the cam sender wheel was damaged when they had to take of the sprocket of the cams to do the chains. Should the cam sender wheel be replaced when chains are done? I've heard they are prone to breaking.

Thanks. The only thing that bothers me is that I have a flat spot remaining after the work was done just under 2000 revs. Some people have mentioned this could be because the cam timing is not quite right due to the fact I've only had the upper chain done and not the bottom one. I wasn't sure whether it was usual practice for the bottom chain to be done as well as the upper one. I agree seems strange they wouldn't change it while the gear box was out however being the lamen I assumed the garage was right in what they said and that the bottom one would never normally need replacing in the lifetime of the car. Could a faulty cam sender wheel be the cause of my flat spot? How easy is this to replace - is it a lengthy (i.e more than 3 hours) job?

Hi I recently had my timing chains and tensioners done. I found out afterwards the garage had only replaced my upper timing chain and all upper chain tensioners and everything to do with only the upper chain (including all guide rails etc). The bottom chain was not replaced nor any of its tensioners etc. I was told that the bottom chain and its tensioners never need replacing as they are much tougher. Is this true? Who else has had their chains done - did the garage replace anything to do with your bottom chain (i.e any of the bottom chain tensioners etc)? Thanks for any help. Matt

Just had a 6-2-1 stainless exhaust manifold fitted to my Golf vr6. Also looks very good quality. Seems good power top end and excellent sound when you floor it but now lacking torque in the mid range which is bugging me - free flowing exhaust manifolds are supposed to increase mid-range torque. It could be the characterisitcs of the new manifold or possibly related to my new timing chain and head gasket I also had fitted recently. Anyway taking it to Stealth when they open in the new year for them to diagnose and fix and get a rolling road figure. VAG COM initially showed the cam sensor as being faulty so had that changed and it was much better but still lacking the old power it used to have. VAG COM now showed up no faults but the flat spot is still there around 1500-1800revs and remains to about 2300. Bit of a mystery - could just need a remap, or it could be cam timing which I'm assuming would be pretty expensive to diagnose and fix! Sorry to hear about your big end failure. Sounds expensive mate. Let us know how you get on with your manifold and rolling road figures.

How long do the chargers tend to last? I assume they need oil changes every 3k miles?

Will do. I think I'm going to have to wait until after new year before I can book my car in as I'm not sure if Stealth are open any time next week.

Thanks for your reply. Do you still run the same charger? Was it second hand?

Hi Has anyone used NS Racing? Are they a good company to go with... any good or bad stories? They apparently do second hand superchargers so may look them up next year some time. Cheers for any info. Matt

Thanks. I'll look them up. Do they have a website?

Thanks for your reply. I'm booking a session with Stealth to try and work out what's going on. It could be my cam timing that is slightly out as I recently had my upper chain done too and a head gasket. I did have a faulty cam sensor following this work and a huge flat spot below 3000 revs. Got the cam sensor replaced and it's virtually back to normal but there is still a significant flat spot around 1700-1800 revs which is bugging me. Anyway I'll see what Stealth say. Cheers.

Hi Has anyone got one of these fitted to their vr6? Did you notice slightly less power/ flat spot in the lower revs but with more power in the higher revs? I have a slight flat spot remaining around 1500-2000revs. Above 3k revs it has a nice surge of power. Just wondered if other people with this modification had noticed the same? Cheers Matt

Hi Does anyone know if there are any companies in the south east area ideally close to or in Sussex that has a rolling road and ideally charges around £50 or less? Thanks for any info. Matt

Agree with above... Take it to a VR specialist who will plug your car into VAG COM and diagnose any sensor faults straight away.

They did take the gearbox out to do the upper chain and all tensioners. They replaced everything to do with the upper chain including all guide rails. It was a complete head gasket and tensioners kit. They did a good job. I would have gone for a new clutch and also flywheel but funds were stretched to the limit (with xmas etc). The car seems fine now to be honest and I think they did a good job. It pulls fine from 2k onwards in any gear. Slightly hesitant around 1-1.5k but then it always was. The cam sensor was definitely the culprit for my flat spot. Thanks for your help guys.

Cool thanks. The cam sensor does seem to have been the cause of my problem. (what does the 'p' in cps stand for... is it cam 'position' sensor?) My car now pulls fine from 2-2.5k revs onwards. Above 3k revs it pulls like a train and you can hear the air flow through the stainless manifold. It's slightly sluggish below 2k revs but am I right in assuming this is down to the new freeflowing 6 branch exhaust manifold shifting power towards the top end power band? Is it really worth getting them to open the engine up and check the timing again? They did manually turn the engine over before putting the inlet mani back on after they did the chains - they seem to know exactly what they're doing. If my car is pulling fine from 2-2.5k revs onwards does this mean the cam timing is ok? What would be the symptoms if the cam timing was out even by just one notch? Can a rolling road session highlight if cam timing was not correct?

Thanks for your replies. Yes I had a problem with my lamda (showed up on VAG COM) which I assume also showed up the over fuelling fault. They replaced the lamda sensor and the fault was corrected. They also realigned my throttle body. There is a tiny bit of slack in the throttle cable but this was checked by them too and it is fine. What is a CPS - is that a cam sensor? My car certainly did seem far more powerful today than yesterday - there does seem to be more power now in the top half of the rev range (quite a fair bit - be good to put it on the rr sometime) but that is due I assume to the 6 branch exhaust manifold. There's certainly no problem with my maf (air flow) sensor and ignition timing as that was all checked today as well on VAG COM. Would a 6 branch exhaust manifold make it feel very very slightly less powerful in the lower revs but more powerful higher up? It all seems to be fixed with the new cam sensor and I think the only difference in driveability in the lower revs (if any) is due to the 6 branch. I'm sure if the cam timing was out (even by a notch) there would still be a fair lack of power? Storm were really helpful and certainly offered (naturally for free) to check and fix any cam timing problems if I had any further problems - but to be honest fitting the new cam sensor seems to have fixed it. Would a rolling road show up any cam timing problems (even if it was slightly out)? As I was thinking of having a rolling road session at Stealth in the new year now I've had the 6 branch fitted. Thanks again for all your comments.

Ok - an update: I went back to Storm today and they were really helpful - they did another VAG COM check and found out my cam sensor was faulty. Storm put a new one in for me for free and now it drives fine. It is still very very slightly lacking in the low revs but is certainly better than it was yesterday. How easy is it to check and fix cam timing - would it take a good few hours? I took it for a test drive with one of the guys and it certainly seemed much better and pulled stronger in the low revs with the new cam sensor (and the VAG COM fault disappeared with the new cam sensor). It's hard to tell whether the exhaust manifold is going to take away some of my lower rev power (if there is any loss it is only fractional). There certainly is more power top end now with the new 6 branch. They did say the cam timing was double checked when they did it and turned the engine over before the inlet manifold was put back on. By the way they only did the top timing chain and tensioners - not the lower chain as that apparently never needs doing and uses totally different tensioners. I asked them is there an 'easy' way for them to check the cam timing again and they said it can only be done manually and it would be a lengthy process. They would do that for me if necessary for free of course but it seems much better than it was yesterday for sure - from 2.5k revs it starts pulling hard and pulls harder now with the 6 branch. I do know a VR6 as standard lacks grunt below this so I'm assuming it's back to normal. My fuelling was reduced (as my car was overfuelling) so this and the new exhaust manifold could account for slight shift in power towards the top end. And the faulty cam sensor seems to have been the cause of my problems yesterday. What does everyone think? Anyone had similar problems with a cam sensor and found it to be fine after it was fixed? Cheers for any help / comments. Matt

Ok..I took my car for a drive today - the tappet noise is fine - slightly tappety as it used to be maybe even slightly quieter (so nothing really to worry about here) - not sure why it was noisier yesterday. The new manifold does tick too when it gets hot and also emphasises any engine sounds - not sure. But the car does seem to have lost power in total I suspect... and there is a clear flat spot early on in the rev range, mainly between 1-3k revs. What could cause all of this? The top end power doesn't feel quite as strong as it used to, although it does remain smooth which is good. I'm concerned about the flat spot though. I was told by a couple of companies and some members on here that a 6 branch should increase mid range torque. I seem to have lost some to be honest. I don't think it is the 6 branch causing my problem as others with a similar 6 branch haven't lost any power - I assume the MAF sensor maybe something to do with this... what does anyone think? I was told the garage reset the ecu (normal practice) when they did all the chains and head gasket etc, so I shouldn't have to reset the ecu again. What about cam timing: how can I or a garage tell if the cam timing is out of sync? Is this easy to diagnose and fix? Would incorrect cam timing cause a slight loss in power? To recap, I had the following done to my car: Fitted new chains/ tensioners. Fitted new standard head gasket. Fitted 6 branch exhaust manifold. Also realigned throttle body. Also fitted second hand lamda sensor. Reduced the fuelling level (as car was over-fuelling). They did a VAG COM fault check and found the throttle body alignment to be incorrect so fixed this (fault disappeared). VAG COM also showed up the original lamda sensor as being faulty so the garage fitted a second hand lamda sensor (fault disappeared). They also corrected my fuelling as my car was overfuelling. This was corrected and fault disappeared. No other faults remained on VAG COM after this. A faulty maf sensor may not appear on VAG COM... could this therefore be the culprit? Not sure why it would suddenly fail after the work was carried out. My car did drive really well before. Could any of the work carried out above cause slight loss in power? Thanks again for any help. Matt

My Golf VR6 takes about 15 mins or at least 10 miles in this cold weather to reach oil operating temp of 90 degrees. Not a lot different in the summer. I always keep it below 3k revs until it reaches op temp.