Yandards' 16VG60 - Running Report 23 Jul 15

[Yandards 0]

Good work. Used these a few times at work a while ago but not to this sort of tolerance. One thing that I was never quite sure on was how this gets rid of the bore ovality as the legs of the tool are spring loaded. Surely all its doing is taking material away from all round the bore or is it down to the smaller OD pushing the tool in against the spring harder and thus taking more material away from that area?

 

The why is covered in the wiki article I linked on honing, but it comes down to the compliance of flexibility of the honing tool, this results in an average being applied to the process which gradually removes the ovality of the cylinder bores.

 

It does work having measured the before, during and after when I was doing the honing yesterday; it just takes a long time to achieve!

 

Ultimately I could have just carried out a rough up hone as the bores were well within the required tolerances but I think it's better to try to reset back to a true cylinder to account for furture bore wear and a subsequent ovaling of the cylinder profile.

 

Suffice to say when I go ABF in furture I will get a machine shop to true the bores as it will be a lot quicker and easier.

[boost monkey 0]

Do machine shops use different equipment to hone then? The one I worked for (albeit out in the sticks in the caribbean) did iit exactly how you did. The guy had been doing them for years and could just tell by the feel of the tool in the bore.

[fla 9]

this is impressive. I'm almost tempted to get a 2.8 block to bore out and hone to 2.9, although the boring may not be something i could do myself i guess?

[coullstar 0]

No, not unless you have a boring machine that can handle 15deg between banks. TBH OBDII 2.8's are probably better than the OBDI 2.9's. Would be good to see and hear this thing. We definitely need to get a Scottish meet this year.

[Yandards 0]

No, not unless you have a boring machine that can handle 15deg between banks. TBH OBDII 2.8's are probably better than the OBDI 2.9's. Would be good to see and hear this thing. We definitely need to get a Scottish meet this year.

 

Yeah and not one 3 hours away around the central belt either, need to get it finished, then mapped at DG first though - a replacment belt tensioner needs sourcing as part of the rebuild as well.

 

Fla, don't even bother trying to oversize an engine using a honing tool, although if you wanted to replace the piston rings then you can use a honing tool on a VR6 as well as using it to true the cylinders if they are going oval.

 

With a total of 6 hours work yesterday and a set of worn honing stones I removed no more than 0.02mm of material at best. To give you an idea of how much more work that is, the first oversize on a VR is 81.51mm (standard bore is 81.01mm) so you would need to remove a furthur 0.49mm of material using a bore honing tool to achieve that - or 25 sets of honing stones and 150 hours of labour!

[boost monkey 0]

surely you would take that much metal off with a boring machine? a self centering machine that goes down each bore taking off a set amount of material, leaving you XX amount to hone back with a handheld tool.

 

I've never seen a honing machine, only a handheld one which looks like a huge powerdrill with extra 180 degree handles on it.

[Yandards 0]

As I was waiting for my new bore honing stones to arrive I decided to crack into sorting out the rocker cover and inlet manifold.

 

Both of these items were shot blasted but its been a few years and they were looking a little too tatty for my taste.

 

So it was out with a pot Aluma blast and the airbrush to clean them up and hopefully this finish will be more resistant to oily marks than bare ally as well as retaining that just sand blasted look - I am pretty chuffed with the results, it looks like blasted ally and not a paint effect which is just what I was after. Temp wise its good up to 300 degrees F or 149 deg C so should be more than suitable for engine bay temps, it also only took about 1 airbrush pot of paint to do 2 coats on each item - way cheaper and more effective than a rattle can.

 

As for the bore front, my honing stones did finally arrive today, reasonably happy with the end result although I managed to snap a no 2 piston ring when I was taking it off to clean up the piston prior to refitting them - oh well I needed to go to VW to order some bits anyway. Will get the other pistons back in tomorrow or Monday post clean up and it will hopefully be at a compression testing phase by the end of the week.

[quicky1980 0]

No idea how I missed this thread, but very cool. Nice to see such an rare setup

[Alex_G60_Fanatic 0]

nice one Yan! What kind of air brush you got for spraying that cover? Have been looking at getting one for myself :)

[Jim 1]

Top job on those fanimold and rocker cover.. they look fresh from the factory - if not better!

[Yandards 0]

nice one Yan! What kind of air brush you got for spraying that cover? Have been looking at getting one for myself :)

 

A really cheap one that came with compressor, no doubt a more expensive item would give more control but for painting entire components it's ideal. The trick is to make sure you add enough thinners to the pot or it won't spray without lumps. Did my front brake discs (the bits that are not in the swept area obviously) early this year and for Hammerite they came out very nicely indeed with the airbrush.

 

Next on the to paint list is the front calipers, going for an OEM look with some gold and silver mixed together, have to see how they turn out and hopefully they should last a lot longer than the brush finish I applied previously.

 

On a random note sorted my loft out today, I really need to sell some bits that I don't need..

[Jim 1]

Make sure mates get first dibs, Mr H! :)

[Yandards 0]

Make sure mates get first dibs, Mr H! :)

 

Very little late stuff Jim, mostly a collection of components to make another 16vG60 - including a complete 85k KR block. I think I have some VR6 water hoses that are new though, along with the Gruvenparts crack pipe (new).

 

I do seem to have acquired 4 G60 throttle bodies though - that doesn't include the 2 fitted to the cars either, although I need the one with the throttle potentiometer.

 

Priority is to get the one in the garage back in one piece first before I work through the bits I don't need.

[boost monkey 0]

What manifold is that Yan?

 

Also, doesn't Hammerite say on the tin you shouldn't thin it down?

[Yandards 0]

What manifold is that Yan?

 

Also, doesn't Hammerite say on the tin you shouldn't thin it down?

 

It does for brush painting but for spraying you need to thin it using Hammerite thinner/brush cleaner or a MEK based solvent (which would be very hard to find).

 

The one in the picture is an RPM tuning item, I also have a cut down S2 one (short runner type) and a modified 16v top half inlet with a throttle body attachment point on both sides.

 

So I really need to have a clear out as there is a few quid just in manifolds!

[Yandards 0]

Right little update.

 

Finished the rebuild late afternoon on saturday, fired her up, no leaks and started on 3rd turn over.

 

Let it warm up for a bit and then went straight for the compression test - this was bad news on all 4 a mere 8 bar (need 12). I then had a social engagement so that was it for the day.

 

Sunday it was back into it, warmed up to 86 degrees oil temp, coolant was nicely up to temp and no top-ups to do on the reservoir. This time I logged the readings on the comp gauge on the 2nd compression stroke, 4th and 6th (look for the pulses on the comp gauge needle). I should have been getting around 7b on the 2nd stroke, just under 9b on the 4th and around 12b on the 6th. Highest was 8.5b with all 4 cylinders reading roughly the same amount.

 

So I then got a wendy on (no offence intended Wendy) for a bit before having a proper think. My options were now basically down to strip my original KR block down get it checked over for cylinder trueness (read round cylinders),honed and have a tiny amount skimmed from the deck of the block to ensure flat (bit where the head sits onto the block). Or just fit an ABF instead - complete with charger obviously.

 

I then set about costing the 2 options up, an ABF engine could be had for around £400 delivered to me and the quote for the block work came back at £150 inc VAT. The cons of the ABF were that it was going to be stacked headgaskets and all the balancing work I had done on the KR bits would not transfer so that was cash wasted.

 

Decided to sleep on it a bit before making a decision and figured it was worth trying a few more things on the current engine before throwing in the towel. Got in from work today and gave DG Auto a ring for some advice on comp testing, Graham as always was very helpful and told me what I expected - initial compression readings on a fresh engine should be very high, he also suggested I try a leak down check before taking it out for a thrash to try and get the rings to bed in; finally he asked if the cams were ok and to check the woodruff keys hadn't moved causing the timing to wander.

 

Just to confirm the timing was ok I reset the engine to TDC on No 1, both the gearbox flywheel mark and the cambelt pulley mark aligned perfectly - at this point it was time for some food so I went in and called it a day. Watched a film with Mrs Yandards but after I decided to remove the cambelt cover to check the cams were aligned ok - easy to do on my conversion and with the engine at TDC easy to check. I was somewhat suprised to see the inlet camshaft mark 1 tooth out of position!

 

This must have been like this since I put the cams in the head although I do recall setting them up in the first place, its easy on a 16v the 2 circles on the toothed sprockets must be in line with the top of the cylinder head next to each other. So the inlet is 1 tooth behind the (cambelt driven) exhaust camshaft - this would result in the inlet valve not being fully closed at the start of the compression stroke on all 4 cylinders, hence my good start to 8b on the 2nd stroke but nothing else. I effectively lowered the comp ratio of the engine by doing this.

 

So its back into the garage tomorrow evening when I get in to move the inlet camshaft (chain is ok, really tight and was new when the cams were fitted) and then re-try the compression test. I am expecting much closer to the numbers I was expecting and to be frank if this sorts it I will be very happy indeed - as well as being a little annoyed!

 

It just goes to show that its always worth checkng the simple things and that a little bit of though before you act is a good job - or I could have an ABF engine I probably wont need (fingers crossed) on the way.

 

As always thanks to DG for some top advice and reminders to try the easy stuff :salute:

 

I just hope this is the problem... :?

[coullstar 0]

I really hope it is. I know the feeling, complete despair that despite your efforts it still doesnt work then after a while of kicking things you go back and find something so simple. When it all works you then turn despair into delight.

[boost monkey 0]

i pood myself when I did my first engine swap - simple KR back into a mk2 16v. It would start but would never idle. ever.

 

took me about 3 hours to realise it was the little brass screw in the side of the TB.... so I feel your pain.

[Supercharged 2]

WTF - you don't have much luck in the cylinder head dept do you?

 

Give me a call tomorrow mate, was down at the G-spot today and Darren was asking how you were getting on...

[Jim 1]

Fingers crossed Yan.. hope you get the figures you wanted this evening and get this puppy on the road! :)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Let it warm up for a bit and then went straight for the compression test - this was bad news on all 4 a mere 8 bar (need 12). I then had a social engagement so that was it for the day.

 

How very British of you :D "Oh well, can't be helped, let's go for a spot of luncheon, whato!"

 

When my first 'built' turbo block bit the dust, I don't think I would have been able to face a social engagement with the thought of £2K down the drain going round my head, but sometimes it's what you have to do. Put down the tools, step away from the vehicle and come back to it another day.

 

If it's any consolation, it WILL come good and you'll be glad you perservered. This car is going to be epic :salute:

[Supercharged 2]

Let it warm up for a bit and then went straight for the compression test - this was bad news on all 4 a mere 8 bar (need 12). I then had a social engagement so that was it for the day.

 

How very British of you :D "Oh well, can't be helped, let's go for a spot of luncheon, whato!"

 

 

Thing is Yan doesn't do 'socials' - I reckon he just went to play on the Xbox...

[Yandards 0]

Let it warm up for a bit and then went straight for the compression test - this was bad news on all 4 a mere 8 bar (need 12). I then had a social engagement so that was it for the day.

 

How very British of you :D "Oh well, can't be helped, let's go for a spot of luncheon, whato!"

 

 

Thing is Yan doesn't do 'socials' - I reckon he just went to play on the Xbox...

 

Piffle.

 

Went round a mates with Mrs Yandards and had a spot of food, etc.

 

Right, aside from a nice lump on the side of my face where the bloody 23mm socket and 1ft pry bar slipped off the cambelt pulley all is well.

 

Stripped the cams out tonight and re-aligned the 2 dots on the camshaft (no pics was tight on time), all rebuilt so it was time for a comp test - didn't want to start it up first as it was getting late and I had to move the dizzy to get the cams out.

 

No 1, nothing, onto No 2, still nothing, cue some arsing around with the comp gauge before moving onto No 3, nothing so kept cranking, then 2b, onto 4b, 8b still climbing all the way up to 13b! :clap: :grin:

 

Worked out that there was not enough oil pressure when cranking the starter to get the bores a bit slippery so it was back in with the spark plugs, king lead back on the coil and fuse 18 (fuel pump) back in the relay board.

 

Cranked over and lots of coughing and spluttering but no sign of running - tried again but same thing, seems like the timing is off but I figured it was worth another go at a comp test.

 

No 1, 13.5b and rising up as expected (7b on 2nd comp stroke, 9.5b on 4th and 12b on 6th with a peak of 13.5b)

No 2, 11.5b, bit low :?

No 3, Another 13.5b

No 4, 13b this time

Back to No 2 and this time 13b.

 

Massively pleased it all works (sort of), annoyed that a simple camshaft tweak was the source of the low compression problem and it just shows you should always check the simple stuff first (or do a leak down check). It was reasonably rapid with a mere 8b per cylinder when I drove it last year, if the compression settles down to the expected 12b levels then thats 1/3rd more compression which should give me a lot more go on the road.

 

Plan now is to drop the oil, remove the crank so I can change the bearings and then fit the new ASD gearbox (with G60 3rd and 4th). That's a job for the weekend though, I still need to replace the tensioner system with an alternative setup (got one in mind) and then it will be onto some running in and general tidying up of the engine bay (bought a zinc plating kit for that job). Front calipers are on the overhaul list as they are in a right state right now and I have some fuel tank straps in the galvaniser as I type this.

 

Ultimately.. :clap: despite an :epicfail: with my original fitment of the camshafts :scratch:

[Jim 1]

Woohoo.... progress :) Nice one dude and glad you managed to find the motivation to get back in there and keep cracking after the massive setback this summer!

[boost monkey 0]

Great work Yan! the victory is so much sweeter when you fix a problem than when something works first time, but can empathise with the annoyance!