The Forced Induction VR6 thread

[KADVR6 0]

because if you could run it vertically?? would this not mean that you may not have to re-locate the battery??? also i think 80% you could get it to fit between the charger outlet/throttle body if you were keeping the standard manifold??

[StormchargedVR6 0]

because if you could run it vertically?? would this not mean that you may not have to re-locate the battery??? also i think 80% you could get it to fit between the charger outlet/throttle body if you were keeping the standard manifold??

Get that battery in the boot where it belongs. :lol:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I would hate to have to try and trace a leak in that manifold Shaun! Very trick though 8)

 

Inlet depression - I don't think I have that problem with the BMC Simon. Big engine, Big throttle, small plenum intake, next to no boost loss through chargecooler and only 11psi boost. How ever, i do really like the idea of using the factory box with a panel filter!! That would work a treat. Would need a bit of plastic welding action though, but it would work great. Think I'll look into that!

 

Yeah the Americans are very afraid of det. I got sent a map from America to try in my DTA and the boost timing was like, 15 - 17 degrees depending on manifold pressure, but Vince set it to 27 on his map :lol:

 

I don't like the way they use excessive fuel to keep the valves cool too, but if they're running that little timing, it increases EGTs anyway, so they get themselves into a viscous circle.

 

MAP sensor - Not had a chance to try that yet, been moving house so the car's been sat it in the garage for a while. The bore of the vac line works OK I think, it's a big cc motor and matches the bore of the fittings in the Schimmel rail, I just think it would benefit from being a little closer to the manifold. Trouble is, most of my parts have come from Bill and he builds VRs to run 40 or more guage psi, so all the fuelling components are seriously oversized. 1500hp regulator and rail, 10mm ID fuel lines etc etc.. seems to work though cause the engine is a heck of a lot smoother on the big stuff than the stock stuff, that's for sure.

I've never understood vacuum tbh, I thought vacuum was just vacuum where ever it was, didn't think bore and distance could affect it that much. I know G60s have to have exactly 1M of vac line feeding the ECU or it misbehaves, which I aways thought was bizarre!!

 

4x4 - Well, been giving that more thought over the weekend because I went round to a mate's for a BBQ, and it would be rude not to go out and get whiffs of "Eau de clutch" from his Evo 9 FQ360. Astonishing grip, absolutely unbelievable. The rock hard HKS suspension was throwing us all over the road (nasty little B roads) but the grip was surreal. Zero trye squeal / scrabble when deploying 1.7bar of boost out tight turns in 2nd and 3rd gears.

 

Have to say though, the VR would beat it in a straight line....but cross country on nasty little B roads, his Evo would murder my Corrado 5 times over, LOL! :-)

 

So with that little experience fresh in my mind I came to the conclusion that there's no point messing with the Spandex on a Corrado when that sublime chassis is available off the shelf! Even Spandexed up, there's no way a Rado would keep with an FQ cross country....assuming both drivers are equally committed!

[ziderapple 0]

I dont suppose anyone does actually know how much air a V9 running at 12psi would displace? (CFM)

 

Thanks

[CrazyDave 0]

Chris, I went through the sizing of my CC with Dave at chargecooler.co.uk (same guy as the other link you have). Mine was based on 400HP which is a little less that the turbo capability at 1bar boost. But as I didn't really want to go that high I went for that one.

 

The 6" diameter unit is much better for low loss cooling but I don't think it will fit, just not a big enough gap on my installation.

 

They can go in pretty much any orientation providing you have the header tank as the highest point, so that any air works its way out of the system (I'm about to relocate my header tank because its not high enough). Having used this one for a while I think it could do with a larger volume of water in the system. More pipe or a bigger tank, so that it's not so sensitive to heat soaking.

 

On a different note, I managed to modify my manifold to take a 1.8t air temperature sensor (it's an exposed element type, different to the normal vr6 one which is enclosed in a plastic case ). Tried it out with the one off my Golf, and it works much better than the standard VR6 sensor. The temperature pretty much instantly (about 1 second lag) tracks the air temperature when the throttle is opening and closing. The normal one suffers badly with heat soak and the thermal inertia is about 10-15 seconds! Not good for FI as the ECU will back off the fuel / igniton to compensate for the false high manifold temp.

 

Not checked yet but I bet Bosch do an exposed element type sensor that will fit into the normal M12x1.5? hole. Maybe an early quattro or similar FI car. Because the 1.8t item needs a 12.5dia hole and a M6x1 threaded mounting hole.

[ziderapple 0]

I guess the best thing to do is speak to them and see what they suggest, seems to be the best solution, I dont really want to go FMIC, too much time, choping and hassel for my liking. :lol: Thanks for the info on the exposed temp sensor, I would imagine there is one which would fit the standard tapping, its only a thermistor after all and they come in all shapes and sizes.

 

Well I'm off to France in the morning 'till the 15th so I'll have to put the cc thoughts on hold, well try to. I'll still log on if I get a chance.

 

Cheers.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Good skills on the 1.8T IAT sensor Dave!

 

I might give that a whirl as you're right, the VR6 one is definitely sluggish and heat soaky. Does it have the same resistance as the VR one?

[Toad 0]

Not checked yet but I bet Bosch do an exposed element type sensor that will fit into the normal M12x1.5? hole. Maybe an early quattro or similar FI car. Because the 1.8t item needs a 12.5dia hole and a M6x1 threaded mounting hole.

 

Could you make an adaptor up? Maybe drill the hole out a bit? and make up a threaded adaptor to go into it.

[CrazyDave 0]

Response time of the standard Bosch VR temp sensor is 10s for a 90% temp change (from the datasheet). The open element type is much much better, but I can't find a datasheet for it yet? Bosch Number 0280 130 085 VAG No 058 905 379.

 

The location of the sensor on the standard VR manifold isn't really in the air flow, the 1.8t has it next to the tb so that even at idle the air is flowing across it. But it could be fitted to the VR manifold by drilling a new hole near the TB and tapping the M6 fixing screw, with a bit of sealant on the screw to stop it leaking.

 

The sensor element would appear to be the same resistance(I checked it with a meter at ambient), but without a datasheet I can't comfirm this. So the curve may be different, but highly unlikely.

 

I also discovered why my charge air was getting hotter than I expected (and you're all going to love this one!). The charge cooler rad is fitted in front of the main rad and the main air flow is through the plastic grill, but the three slot grill on my car only has the bottom slot open! I took the grill off tonight and had a good drive around and it's miles better, even when idling the inlet temp isn't going above 35 degrees, on the move it's 28. It's nearly always the silly things!

 

M12.5 hole with M6 blind tapped hole.

 

Location of the original temp sensor inside CrazyDave short runner! Bad Dave.

 

The new sensor built up on the manifold.

[Toad 0]

I also discovered why my charge air was getting hotter than I expected (and you're all going to love this one!). The charge cooler rad is fitted in front of the main rad and the main air flow is through the plastic grill, but the three slot grill on my car only has the bottom slot open! I took the grill off tonight and had a good drive around and it's miles better, even when idling the inlet temp isn't going above 35 degrees, on the move it's 28. It's nearly always the silly things!

 

I took the angle grinder to the back of my grill because of this. I've spoken to people who said it doesn't make that much difference, but I could feel the air flowing through the slots at quite a speed this morning when I got to work and the after run fan was going. I don't think the air being forced up from the lower bumper grill can be that good. The flow rate must be sh1te as standard. Do you think the plastic panel behind the headlight could be removed to increase airflow to cone type air filters? I want to fit a BMC, but don't like the idea of running a cold air feed toward the bottom of the bumper. I know I'll hit a big puddle too fast one day.

 

Could you set up a test using a hairdryer over both temp sensors? If they were in the air stream together for 1-2 minutes then the readings ought to be the same?

 

Lol @ Bad Dave!

[CrazyDave 0]

Toad, I've still got both sensors fitted on the car so I'll check it when cold tomorrow and then warm it up a bit and move the plug to check the reading, should get a 10 degree span that'll confirm if they are the same.

 

If anybody finds a datasheet we could check for definate?

 

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/sensors/temperature/NTC_M12-L.pdf

 

This is the standard one.

[Toad 0]

Toad, I've still got both sensors fitted on the car so I'll check it when cold tomorrow and then warm it up a bit and move the plug to check the reading, should get a 10 degree span that'll confirm if they are the same.

 

If anybody finds a datasheet we could check for definate?

 

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/sensors/temperature/NTC_M12-L.pdf

 

This is the standard one.

 

Is it either of these?

[CrazyDave 0]

Nice one Toad!

 

Second datasheet, Fig A is the standard sensor on a VR. Fig B is the 1.8t sensor. Only thing is the curves are on different scales, DOH. But they are pretty close if you read -30 at the bottom end on both sensors, so a small error if you don't re-calibrate. My ambient reading was the same on both sensors, just need to check a span.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Top dollar Dave, you star!!

 

I have had a 30mm spacer made for my log so that I can use the OBD1 throttle again (less sensitive TPS than OBD2, and bigger plate) and I am going to fit the 1.8T sensor to it live you've done 8)

 

Well done on the Grill thing. I bought one from GPC ages ago which has the slats open. Just a little easier and neater than dremelling the existing one.

 

My pre-rad is down under the bumper as you know, so gets lots of juicy air flow, but it really could do with a fan like yours for the slower moving scenarios.

[CrazyDave 0]

Top dollar Dave, you star!!

 

I have had a 30mm spacer made for my log so that I can use the OBD1 throttle again (less sensitive TPS than OBD2, and bigger plate) and I am going to fit the 1.8T sensor to it live you've done 8)

 

Well done on the Grill thing. I bought one from GPC ages ago which has the slats open. Just a little easier and neater than dremelling the existing one.

 

My pre-rad is down under the bumper as you know, so gets lots of juicy air flow, but it really could do with a fan like yours for the slower moving scenarios.

 

Had a good run on the motorway today, engine doesn't get up to temp with no grill! Hence the two sealed up slots then :? Going to try opening up the right hand half so the charge cooler rad gets more air but not the main rad.

 

Even thought about fitting a long rad underneath the front like yours Kev. Nice and cold down low, but keep the existing one.

[Toad 0]

Had a good run on the motorway today, engine doesn't get up to temp with no grill! Hence the two sealed up slots then :? Going to try opening up the right hand half so the charge cooler rad gets more air but not the main rad.

 

Are you running with no grill whatsoever? Thats a massive area that is opened up. Why not try building one up from cardboard, and thin ply in order to get an idea of the area you need open for correct cooling.

 

All the old petrol/paraffin cars/tractors used to have curtains which you adjusted depending on the ambiant temperature and workload. I don't see why you can't use this principal with your car.

[CrazyDave 0]

Had a good run on the motorway today, engine doesn't get up to temp with no grill! Hence the two sealed up slots then :? Going to try opening up the right hand half so the charge cooler rad gets more air but not the main rad.

 

Are you running with no grill whatsoever? Thats a massive area that is opened up. Why not try building one up from cardboard, and thin ply in order to get an idea of the area you need open for correct cooling.

 

All the old petrol/paraffin cars/tractors used to have curtains which you adjusted depending on the ambiant temperature and workload. I don't see why you can't use this principal with your car.

 

Yeh, it was a quick test to see what the difference was. So like you say, try one at a time and see what the best balance is.

[herisites 0]

FINALLY i can post in this thread :D

 

I have just seeled the deal on Coxy's Rotrex supercharger which is the older SP30-84 model as apposed to the newer C30 model.

 

What i need to know is what size pulley to go for. I dont want silly power that will blow my head gasket etc, so im thinkin around the 260-280bhp mark. The charger itself has an 80mm pulley on. I am getting the brackets and pullies etc from Martin at R-Tech in Denmark who Mr Fusion recommended and so far he is a top guy and very helpful. He first recommended a 90mm pulley to be on the safe side as he seems to think i could damage the engine, then he said i could possible go 80mm. I was lead to believe the 80mm pulley can give around 10-12 psi but that could be on the 94 model not the 84 model which mine is!!

 

So what does everyone else think?

 

Rob.

[Guest]

FINALLY i can post in this thread :D

 

I have just seeled the deal on Coxy's Rotrex supercharger which is the older SP30-84 model as apposed to the newer C30 model.

 

What i need to know is what size pulley to go for. I dont want silly power that will blow my head gasket etc, so im thinkin around the 260-280bhp mark. The charger itself has an 80mm pulley on. I am getting the brackets and pullies etc from Martin at R-Tech in Denmark who Mr Fusion recommended and so far he is a top guy and very helpful. He first recommended a 90mm pulley to be on the safe side as he seems to think i could damage the engine, then he said i could possible go 80mm. I was lead to believe the 80mm pulley can give around 10-12 psi but that could be on the 94 model not the 84 model which mine is!!

 

So what does everyone else think?

 

Rob.

 

You'll be looking at more than 280bhp with 10-12psi. Try nearer 300bhp! 8) I'm only running 8psi, and am getting just over 290bhp. It's plenty enough for me...

[herisites 0]

You'll be looking at more than 280bhp with 10-12psi. Try nearer 300bhp! 8) I'm only running 8psi, and am getting just over 290bhp. It's plenty enough for me...

 

My thoughts exactly so i think perhaps a 90mm pulley may be more like it. I think thats still good for about 8psi.

[alex303 0]

My thoughts exactly so i think perhaps a 90mm pulley may be more like it. I think thats still good for about 8psi.

 

Think your probably right as my Rotrex kit has a 70mm pulley which is supposed to be good for 12psi (i asked for one that would give me 12psi when i ordered it) and i've got exactly the same charger as you!

[marcus 0]

After a frustrating wait, i can post in here too 8).

All thats left to get is an Eloctronic boost controller, exhaust and a few spare tyres :D .

[Kevin Bacon 5]

:lol: Welcome to the Force Fed VR Club Marcus and Herisites!

 

Don't forget to keep us posted of all the details with plenty of pics!

 

I'm not sure about your compressor outlet mate, the compressed air will be hitting a 90 degree brick wall at high boost. See how it drives, but you might want to get that bend done with a softer angle.

[marcus 0]

 

I'm not sure about your compressor outlet mate, the compressed air will be hitting a 90 degree brick wall at high boost. See how it drives, but you might want to get that bend done with a softer angle.

 

I'll ask about that..is that the lil welded bit at top right of the pic?? ...do you think it may run a less smooth with this 90 degree bend ?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

It'll be OK with low boost. It's just a sharper angle than desired and might cause a bit of back pressure, but see how it drives and go from there 8)