The Forced Induction VR6 thread

[herisites 0]

I sent my money to R-Tech today for all the brackets and pullies (including 100 euro oil :( ) for my rotrex so that will take a few days to go through then another few days to be delivered im guessing so hopefully i will have everything i need to mount my charger next week!

 

All i need to sort out now is all the piping. The charger has an 80mm inlet and a 50mm outlet. I will need an 80mm-50mm reducer in there somewhere so im thinking of keeping it at 50mm as long as possible to the throttle body to give better low down torque as apposed to running it at 80mm. Whats peoples views on this?

 

So the generic order would be: throttle body > 80mm-50mm reducer > 50mm elbow and pipe to charger outlet > charger > 80mm (90 degree bend) off the charger and then a cone filter.

 

Just having problems finding the right sizes now! The reducer mainly, i cant find an 80-50 reducer!

 

Once these are sorted i just need injectors and then its fit it all and take it to Vince :D I need to ring Vince actually to find out if he will be mapping it with or without the MAF, does anyone know what he's likely to do?

 

EDIT: Also does anyone know if i will need to run a blow off valve with it? I will have to ask Vince i think when i find out about the MAF.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

76-51mm here mate - http://www.siliconhoses.com/content.asp?inc=product&catalog=0022S&cat=0022S?

 

That will be spot on. Get some good quality T bolt clamps aswell. You don't want boost hoses pinging off when you're having fun.....not that that will happen with a farty 8psi :lol:

 

Yes, maintain the 50mm outlet bore for as long as possible. When it hits the throttle, it doesn't matter so much, but you don't want the gas speed slowing down from charger to throttle beforehand....not that it's an excessively long intake path anyway.

 

MAF - You'll need a standard VAG 1.8T Diverter valve from Forgemotorsport.

 

No MAF - You can use a blow off valve if you like.

 

Vince doesn't map with the MAF usually and restores lost throttle response with extra ignition advance.

[herisites 0]

Nice one Kev, so the sizes are obviously slightly out then on the hoses, im guessing as they have to be slightly bigger/smaller to fit on to each other!

 

So i need one of them and a 135 degree elbow to come off the tb, then a length of 50mm pipe, then im guessing a short bit of 51mm hose to connect the 50mm pipe to the charger outlet?, then a 90 degree 80mm elbow (80mm or 76mm like the reducer?), will a cone filter fit straight on to the end of this hose or will i need a bit of 80mm pipe between them?

 

Just want to know exactly what to order!

 

I will ring Vince and ask him whether or not he will be mapping it with the MAF.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah, a 'snug' fit on the throttle and perhaps a shade over on the 50mm pipe but it'll work fine. it's not like you're 10mm over on both ends and having to crimp the excess up :lol:

 

This gets expensive. I lost count on how much I spent on random silicon elbows and reducers etc getting my turbo in. Kits make life so much easier (and cheaper)!

 

I don't know about your other elbows and things as I've not seen a Rotrex kit in the flesh, but sounds about right. Siliconhoses.com will have every thing you need and they keep big stocks, so next day usuall. Black and blue available, unike Samco where black is usually on 6 week back order....feckin useless that company is!

[marcus 0]

Apparently this was a bit of a nightmare to fit, but after time and effort, the FMI is in in there perfectly. :D.

Towing eye relocated.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Neat job mate! My chargecooler prerad is down there too, seems to get plenty of air judging by the intake temps 8)

[herisites 0]

Right i rang Vince and asked if he will map the car with or without the MAF and he said that because mines the latest ecu type (with immobilizer etc) that its easier to work on and can run a MAF better than others, he also says that because i am only going to be running about 8psi that it may benefit running the MAF as well. He said that i need to run the MAF as far away from the charger as possible so where would i put it? Close to the throttle body just after the 50 >80 reducer maybe? Or does it need to be the other side of the charger (cant remember if thats upstream or downstream!)?

 

Also i need to find out from R-Tech if i need to run a driverter valve or not as Vince didnt really know, but he said that if i do run one that i need to divert it back in far away from the charger again, sorry for being thick but whats that then?? :oops:

 

I dont really understand all this MAF and diverter valve business!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Good stuff with the MAF then. It needs to be upstream of (between air filter and charger intake) ideally mate and with the diverter valve, the air pressure created when you back off the gas needs to route back into the charger intake *after* the MAF.

[herisites 0]

Cheers kev so i now know the difference between upstream and downstream :lol:

 

So if i need to run the MAF between the air filter and charger intake im going to need even more bloody piping then?

 

And if i need to get a diverter valve, is it fitted downstream of the charger but diverts upstream or am i talking crap? :?

 

I seriously dont get it, i just thought i would mount the charger then run a pipe to the throttle body simple as but it seems to get more confusing every day :lol:

[herisites 0]

Ok i contacted R-tech and Martin told me that i should definatelty run a re-circulation valve.

 

So where can i get one of these then? And what do i need to mount it? Dont i just need a T-Piece downstream of the charger with a 25mm spout for the valve to connect to?

 

EDIT: Is THIS the one i need?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yep, that's the one.....

 

You need to create an air loop between the charger outlet and charger inlet (after MAF) with the diverter valve in the middle. It's exactly the same principal as the idle valve.....which creates a big air leak between throttle and intake manifold ;-)

 

When you dip the clutch at high revs to change gear, the thottle closes shut and creates huge back pressure because the charger will still be compressing the air, so the valve 'diverts' the unwanted compressed air back into the inlet, after the MAF as it's air that's already been metered. It's important on the rotrex because it spins close to turbo speeds, and back pressure on compressor blades (surge) can lead to premature bearing failure.

 

You'll need some 25mm (internal diameter) silicon bits n bobs aswell....90 deg elbows, joiners, straights etc etc.

[marcus 0]

Heresites Blimey mate, that sounds confusing, :lol: good luck though, it'll all be worth it.

 

Cheesewire Im glad you clarified theres plenty of air there, i was a questioning if enough of the FMI was showing, he simply said "shut up, have you ever stuck ur head out the car at 70mph" :D . plus the slats are also angled to direct the air upwards.

Have you got any pics of the prerad, how big is it?

[CrazyDave 0]

Looking very neat Marcus, you'd hardly know it was fitted!

 

Rob, try and keep the diverter valve return away from the MAF, and keep the pipe runs before and after the MAF straight.

 

Air Filter------MAF-------DV return pipe--------charger-------dv out-----manifold

 

Air flow meters need 2x the diameter of straight pipe before and after the meter for best results.

 

The DV return may cause reverse flow if placed to close to the MAF, it can't sense direction, so it shows as a false reading of more air going in. I know it's tight for pipework but most of the above can be done.

 

Didn't Mr Fusion have some pics of his Rotrex setup?

[herisites 0]

Thanks for that info Dave, i will bare that in mind when i eventually start buying all the pipes!

[herisites 0]

Ok im going to start ordering the pipes from siliconhoses.com as they definately seem to be the cheapest prices i can find.

 

So far i have from the charger to the throttle body the following:

 

- 51mm 90 degree bend from charger outlet

- 51mm T-piece with 25mm spout for diverter valve (now for this if i get a silicon one i will need an alloy hose joiner each side wont i? But if i get a metal t-piece then i can just push the hoses each side over it yes? but being metal i then just need a bit of 25mm silicon hose to connect to the dv?? pretty sure this is what Ben had on his)

- 51mm 45 degree bend

- 51mm alloy joiner

- 51 > 76mm reducer

- 76mm alloy joiner

- Now to connect to the throttle body do i need a 76mm 90 degree bend or a full on 80mm bend as they have both? Im guessing 80 to connect to the tb? Also ben told me that he had a custom 25mm spout at the apex of the elbow for the ISV, is this needed? How do i do this?

 

If that is correct i will go ahead and order these parts so atleast im getting somewhere then :lol:

 

Then i just need to figure out what i need the other side of the charger then which is going to include the MAF and diverter valve inlet. Would i be better of just using flexi here but with a t-piece in there somewhere for the dv?

[KADVR6 0]

this may be easier for you rob, http://www.c2motorsports.net/intake_systems.asp order the same parts as i have fitted to my vortech, all you would then nead is a 50>76mm reducer from the charger to the pipework suppied from c2???

or give ns racing a ring and see if they have the plastic pipework available,

 

 

karl

[herisites 0]

Cheers Karl, so which bit is it i would need? The part with the K&N filter? Will that fit straight on to my charger and relocate the MAF as needed?

 

What about from the charger to the throttle body?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Hmmmm..... I guess I'll be ordering another turbo cartridge from the states then :(

 

Not sure how it happened. Oil and water feeds are fine, nothing punctured the air filter, it didn't over boost and it wasn't too hot.

 

I'm guessing premature bearing failure, causing the compressor wheels to contact the housing. And judging by the amount of molten metal in the air filter, I'm also guessing it was excessive compressor surge that caused the bearing failure. I knew the spring in the BOV was too strong but i was told it wasn't.....

 

Anyway, amazingly the turbo shaft still spins easily and it still makes boost and drives as normal. No metal got in the engine. It just melted and stuck to the housing!

 

I'm going to get a 3076 cartridge and bolt it to my turbine housing because it has an anti-surge compressor housing and is marginally bigger than my 3071, so shouldn't be too laggy hopefully.

 

Ce la vie..... 8)

[herisites 0]

Ouch! That doesnt look too good Kev! I dont really know much about turbos so have NO idea what you are talking about :lol: but good luck getting it sorted all the same :)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I think the Dump Valve jammed shut, so when I closed the throttle when changing gear at high rpm, massive pressure went backwards through the turbo, stalled the blades and overheated them..... that's why the metal splatter has gone backwards and not into the engine (thank god).

 

That's a quick lesson in "Compressor surge" for you mate and a clear demonstration as to why dump valves are VERY VERY important and not there to make chav pleasing noises!

 

This "Cha Cha Cha" noise everyone thinks is so cool when you change gear in turbo cars is actually the sound of destroying your compressor. Shame the chavs don't realise that :lol: They are misinformed about it being "wastegate chatter", which you cannot hear.

[Toad 0]

Error. Did any metal get into your charge cooler? Will the turbot be covered by warranty still?

 

I've heard of people actively trying to get that "Wastegate chatter" :roll:

[herisites 0]

Ahh i see what you mean now, well yours must have some massive pressure so understandable it caused that damage really.

 

I have ordered my diverter valve and it comes with 3 different strength springs to choose from for difference psi im guessing, hard medium and soft, it comes with the medium fitted which is stock 1.8T one i think?? So i hopefully shouldnt have any back pressure! Even if mine is only going to be running a puny 8psi! :lol:

 

My brackets and pullies are on their way over from Denmark as we speak :D and should take about 3 days apparently, and i may also have some injectors sorted out so its just the piping i need. I have emailed NS Racing to see if they have any spare upper intakes for the Vortechs, should save me a bit of hassle and money hopefully!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Good stuff Rob, sounds like it's all coming together nicely.

The standard 1.8T valve spring is around 8psi IIRC, so that will be fine.

 

Error. Did any metal get into your charge cooler? Will the turbot be covered by warranty still?

 

Thankfully no, the metal shards went backwards into the air filter instead of the engine. The BMC CDA filter it seems is good at containing lumps of metal within the housing, rather than sending back into the turbo again, so that's a relief too.

 

As for the warranty situation, it doesn't look like the turbo itself was at fault, so if anything I'd have to try and put a claim to TIAL for the DV not opening, but I'll have to prove it didn't open at that precise moment and as it's working now, that will be impossible. Same old same, customer will have to foot the bill :?

 

I've heard of people actively trying to get that "Wastegate chatter" :roll:

 

More fool them! It stems from the Rallying days when they ran insane boost levels and didn't care about the turbos only lasting a couple of hundred miles, but the spectators loved the "Cha Cha Cha" and flames out the back, so was deemed cool on road cars.

A little "Cha cha cha" at low revs isn't critical, but when the turbo is spinning at 220,000rpm flat out in 4th gear and you change to 5th....you really DON'T want "Cha cha cha""

[KADVR6 0]

rob, dont bother with e-mailing NS racing, they never reply to e-mails so just do the old fashioned thing and phone them. :) you could even ask storm develpments for the pipework.

 

you also need the lower charger intake pipe mate.

[marcus 0]

Christ Kev, :( , sos to see that, its shite luck, so you think the spring caused it?? what was it set at?

You have now created a fear in me :shock: , think mine is due to be set at 12 ish??

what do you think?