Please help my g60 - Err where were we? Page 42

[Riley 0]

Aye, from what i remember...it was mint on both the crank and the pully, definately went on snugly with no movement side to side...

 

I give up man...Think ill stick a for sale sign in it at V.A.G 2008.

 

Cheers for all the help.

 

Neil.

[Riley 0]

Guys...What would you do? You have no money at all and there is only one part under the bonnet that you haven't replaced.

 

I really don't know what to believe, or who to turn to.

 

How can the cam be half a tooth out? Shall i try linimg it up with the head? Shall i try hitting the car with a trolley jack?

[dirtytorque 0]

I went to great lengths to make sure that my head tdc mark and my flywheel tdc mark aligned properly.

I found that it was the intermediate pulley that was the hardest to keep from moving but that was is the least critical because you can loosen the dizzy to get the ignition timing right.

If that was my engine i would not leave it time'd up like that.

 

Maybe thats me being anal.

:hitler:

[flusted 0]

doesnt matter whether its 1 or half a tooth out, this still shouldnt cause your running probs.

My vernier cam wheel wasnt marked and i accidently went approx 3 teeth out, it kept blowing boost pipes off :gag: but drove ok otherwise

[Rob_B 0]

if the timing is out it will drive like a bag of nails, feel flat and do all sorts of funny stuff.

[Riley 0]

So does my static timing look right from the pics?

 

Flywheel at tdc, the dot on the back of the cam sprocket does not line up with the head...But the two dots on the other side line up with slash in backplate.

 

Im tired of thinking/talking about it tbh...

When the wot switch isnt cable tied it is very slow to rev, and pops/farts.

 

Gonna build it back up and get it ready for the show anyway... :? :(

 

Just one last question thats never ever been clear with setting ign timing on the g60.

 

When you have to blip the throttle above 3k 3 times, firstly, why 3k? and secondly, should you hit the wot switch each time or not?

 

Neil.

[Rob_B 0]

the 2 dots right next to each other on the back of the cam pulley, need to line up with top of the head at the front (near alternator) when at tdc on no.1 (flywheel mark 0 degrees)

the valves will then be fully closed so the fuel can be ignited because your rotor arm will be pointing at HT lead no.1.

[Yandards 0]

So does my static timing look right from the pics?

 

Flywheel at tdc, the dot on the back of the cam sprocket does not line up with the head...But the two dots on the other side line up with slash in backplate.

 

Im tired of thinking/talking about it tbh...

When the wot switch isnt cable tied it is very slow to rev, and pops/farts.

 

Gonna build it back up and get it ready for the show anyway... :? :(

 

Just one last question thats never ever been clear with setting ign timing on the g60.

 

When you have to blip the throttle above 3k 3 times, firstly, why 3k? and secondly, should you hit the wot switch each time or not?

 

Neil.

 

You might have done it already but it sounds lambda related.

 

The reason I say lambda is that the lambda is the 'daddy' sensor as far as the ECU is concerned, the readings from the lambda probe will override all other ECU sensor inputs until you go WOT, at which the lambda is removed from the system and the ECU switches to the default internal map for fueling.

 

AFAIK from reading the workshop manual section on the G60 regarding timing, idle and CO settings the only reason to blip the throttle is to ensure that the engine has chance to 'blow through' the changes made when you carried out some adjustments. You may have noticed that adjusting the idle screw 1/4 of a turn has little effect on idle RPM but after blipping the throttle it settles in a different place.

 

Dynamically timed between 2000-2500 rpm the engine should be set to 6 degrees BTDC although an acceptable range is 4-8 degrees BTDC.

 

The workshop manual does not state anywhere during the adjustment of the 3 above items that you are required to blip the throttle. I certainly would not look to go WOT during this process.

[Riley 0]

cHEERS GUYS, yANARDS...YEP THE LAMBDA CIRCUIT TESTS OUT FINE, THE FLUCTUATING VOLTAGE, HEATER WIRING ETC :)

Oops, caps lock...

 

Ive even chopped the lambda wiring right up at the ecu, and yet the problem is still there :(

 

Rob, do you mean the one dot on the back of the cam pully, as thats all i have, the two dots are on the front of it.

 

Neil.

[Rob_B 0]

the 2 dots should be on the back, i think you may have the pulley on back to front by the sounds of it. then try lining the dots up to the head

[Riley 0]

It shows it the other way here though mate? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/ ... iagram.jpg

And its how it was when i bought the car...

[coolrado 0]

the 2 dots should be on the back, i think you may have the pulley on back to front by the sounds of it. then try lining the dots up to the head

the two dots should be on the front of the pulley and the single dot should be on the back, if yours is the other way around it sounds like yours is on the wrong way.

 

every manual states that and every G60 i have seen has been like that from the factory.

[Riley 0]

Going round in a big corrado g60 shaped circle tbh :(

[flusted 0]

Ok my final theory, i reckon mine must of been leaking air around injectors or similar as when i changed injectors and fpr the prob went.

Its not timing related its lean big time and the WOT switch covers this up.

cant you take the offer of borrowing darrens emmions thingy?

[Rob_B 0]

the 2 dots should be on the back, i think you may have the pulley on back to front by the sounds of it. then try lining the dots up to the head

the two dots should be on the front of the pulley and the single dot should be on the back, if yours is the other way around it sounds like yours is on the wrong way.

 

every manual states that and every G60 i have seen has been like that from the factory.

 

 

fair enough, my memory must be failing me. i ditched my g60 a while ago, best thing i ever did!

[Riley 0]

Ok my final theory, i reckon mine must of been leaking air around injectors or similar as when i changed injectors and fpr the prob went.

Its not timing related its lean big time and the WOT switch covers this up.

cant you take the offer of borrowing darrens emmions thingy?

 

Ive changed the injectors for my mates, and ive fitted new v.a.g seals to those and the fpr...

 

Can't remember being offered any equipment off Darren?

[Riley 0]

Forgot to add, i tried all the below today...I don't understand half of it though, there's only 25 pins at the ecu and it blabbs on about numbers above 25 :? Anyway all checked out fine.The readings that should all be below 1.5ohms, are all at around o.3/0.4ohms.

 

This is with ECU loom disconnected and multimeter at ECU plug loom

> end.

>

> Supply relay for digi ECU (Ignition on but not running) pins 13+ 23 =

> battery volts.

>

> Volts for digi (Ignition on as above) pins 13+14 and then 14+29 =

> battery volts.

>

> Ignition coil wire (Ignition on again) pins 13+25 = battery volts.

>

> Idle stab valve (ignition on) pins 13+22 = battery volts.

>

> Wire from starter terminal 50 (ignition on) pull off hall sender,

> connect pins 1+13 operate starter = at least 8v.

>

> Ignition is now to be switched off.

>

> Coolant temp pins 6+10 = graph range as per pic in self study manual

> (resistance check)

>

> Intake air temp sensor, pins 6+9 = graph range as per pic in self

> study manual for coolant temp sensor.

>

> CO Pot pins 5+6 = 0-2k ohms.

>

> Idle switch pins 6+11 = max 1.5ohms, open throttle, 1- infinite ohms

>

> Full throttle switch pins 6+15 = 1 to infinite ohms, fully open

> throttle = max 1.5 ohms. (If this is wrong it will go closed loop on

> the ECU and knock the lambda out of function)

>

> The next bit is a bit weird as it requires you to stick on end of the

> multimeter probe into the ecu loom plug and another into a

> disconnected end of a sensor plug.

>

> So first one is the hall sender (which should still be unplugged)

>

> I will refer to the sender connection plug (ECU loom side, NOT sensor

> side

> obviously) as contacts 1,2 and 3. For the hall sender when looking at the

> plug side that mates with the sensor you need to have the metal bar that

> locks the plug in place uppermost. Then contact 1 is on the left, contact 2

> in the middle and contact 3 on the right.

>

> ECU Loom pin 6 to contact 1 = max 1.5 ohms

> ECU Loom pin 18 to contact 2 = max 1.5 ohms

> ECU Loom pin 8 to contact 3 = max 1.5 ohms

>

> Knock sensor is the same setup as the hall sender (metal bar on top

> etc) and the contact numbering sequence is also identical.

>

> ECU Loom pin 4 to contact 1 = max 1.5 ohms

> ECU Loom pin 7 to contact 2 = max 1.5 ohms

> ECU Loom pin 7 to contact 3 = max 1.5 ohms

>

> Finally the lambda probe wiring.

>

> This is a little vaguer, you need to connect the multimeter to pins

> 2+13 on the ECU loom plug, this will give you open resistance.

>

> If you then pull the lambda connector and connect the black or lilac

> wiring to earth you should get a max of 1.5 ohms.

>

> As for a timing check/exhaust gas adjustment there is a procedure

> based on blue temp sensor disconnection, if you can get the engine up

> to temp then switch off, then disconnect the crankcase breather hose,

> route it so that is will only pull in fresh air, restart engine allow

> rad fan to run once and then disconnect blue temp sensor. At engine

> revs of 2000-2500 rpm you should get 4-8 degrees before TDC with a

> timing light. If that is out you can adjust by turning the dizzy and

> you are aiming for a figure of 6 degrees before TDC +- 1 degree (Bit

> weird when the say that 4-8 is an acceptable range but give you a

> setting figure range of 5-7)

>

> Idle speed should be 800 rpm +- 50 rpm and exhaust co content should

> be 0.7%

> =- 0.4% Adjust these with idle screw on TB and CO screw on sensor.

>

> Finally there is a functional test of the lambda probe but as above

> you will need to source and exhaust gas analyser (Halfords sell the

> gunsons pro one for about £70 instead of £120 with the trade card)

>

> Start car, get up to 80 degree oil temp, confirm idle adjustment ok

> (as above), no exhaust system/head leaks.

>

> Check lambda probe heating (resistance stuff above)

>

> Connect up gas analyser

>

> Run engine at 2500 rpm for 1 minute come off throttle, record CO

> content.

>

> Pull FPR vacuum hose from intake manifold and seal it temporarily. CO

> content should briefly rise then fall back to noted value.

>

> If CO content does not fall then pull the lambda plug connection off,

> connect black wire or lilac wire on the ECU loom side of the lambda

> connection to earth.

>

> CO content should change.

>

> If CO content changes then get a new lambda probe.

>

> If it doesn't change then it says to carry out all the resistance

> checks I listed above (which you will have done first) and then

> finally it says you need a new ECU.

>

> Hope that helps,

[ninoG60 0]

Id just like to add to this thread, the timing was done on mine exactly the same way and i have no problems whatsoever, no hesitation or popping, it was done by Riley so if mine is running ok, so should his. Im all for the theory that its fuel related, running lean, but i dont know why,. Im no expert but doing them 2 things must richen up the mixture (BTS and WOT) and it runs perfect, well better albeit a bit rich..

Will try the timing again and see what that brings

[Riley 0]

Tbh Manny, i don't know if i wanna mess with the cam timing again...Nobody anywhere has the definitive answer on it :? :bad-words:

 

So im just gonna build it back up and put the ignition timing back to 6deg instead of the 8deg i tried with no joy...If i can be arsed.

 

Fu*king p|ssed off with it :bad-words: Now ive been trying to sort this again, i can't even be arsed driving it to v.a.g 2008, its just gonna p|ss me off.

 

What is causing this problem? ffs

[ninoG60 0]

we can have a go mate at doin the timing again, at least we can say we tried.

if that dont do it, get it ready and after vag08, we will sort summat out about attacking it a different way, not with a trolley jack though! :)

[Yandards 0]

cHEERS GUYS, yANARDS...YEP THE LAMBDA CIRCUIT TESTS OUT FINE, THE FLUCTUATING VOLTAGE, HEATER WIRING ETC :)

Oops, caps lock...

 

Ive even chopped the lambda wiring right up at the ecu, and yet the problem is still there :(

 

Rob, do you mean the one dot on the back of the cam pully, as thats all i have, the two dots are on the front of it.

 

Neil.

 

But how modded is your car and have you got a proper default map to deal with it?

 

As for the pins it was a typo, should be pin 25 and you can ignore the first check too, there is no connection to pin 13 IIRC on the later models.

 

I would really look into air leaks as Flusted mentioned, get the MFA boost pressure figure up during idle and I will compare it to mine. Also mix up the water and washing up liquid and go crazy over all the gaskets etc to see if they are sucking in extra fuel.

 

The other final option (again not sure if you have done this) is to confirm that your fuel pump is providing the correct level of flow and pressure, I can dig some figures out in the morning but stick a post on this thread so I look at it again/drop me a PM.

[Riley 0]

But how modded is your car and have you got a proper default map to deal with it?

Pretty basic really.

full blend psd charger.

68mm pully.

sns stage 5 chip, even had another sent from them...no different.

decat pipe.

no carbon can.Tried it back on...no joy.

boost return mod.

ported/polished t-body.Tried standard one back on,new vw gaskets each time.

Sierra cosworth fmic with all new pipework

 

All done before the problem appeared.Apart from recent cossie intercooler.

 

As for the pins it was a typo, should be pin 25 and you can ignore the first check too, there is no connection to pin 13 IIRC on the later models.

There's definately a pin at position 13 on mine.

 

I would really look into air leaks as Flusted mentioned, get the MFA boost pressure figure up during idle and I will compare it to mine. Also mix up the water and washing up liquid and go crazy over all the gaskets etc to see if they are sucking in extra fuel.

Boost pressure on the mfa is 510 at idle (sierra cossie fmic and all new pipework) and hits 2000 at redline.

All gaskets have been replaced, exhaust,inlet manifold, t-body, new ecu 1m pipe, new isv and fpr pipes...and again all the fmic pipework is new silicone stuff...so i don't see where there could be an air leak? The last port of call was the inlet manifold, ive even got more new gaskets at vw tommorow (inlet and t-body)

 

The other final option (again not sure if you have done this) is to confirm that your fuel pump is providing the correct level of flow and pressure, I can dig some figures out in the morning but stick a post on this thread so I look at it again/drop me a PM.

Ive had the fuel pressure checked and it was fine...apart from it dropped pretty instantly when switched off. This is due to the after run not working.

Fuel pump is new vw,line under car is new vw,filter,fpr,injectors,injector seals and fpr seals.

[Yandards 0]

As for the pin checks you can ignore the first reference to 13+23 as it is only for cars up to 07.90 build date. The second line should read pins 13+14 and then 14+19.

 

Also might be worth checking the following:

 

Remove the injector rail plug and connect multimeter on Voltage measurment.

 

Switch ignition on, remove fuse 18 and then bridge connections 3+13 on the ECU loom, you should get battery volts.

 

Next step will involve borrowing something from the VAG dealer, not sure how well you get on with them but you need to ask to borrow the VAG 1598/2 adapter lead. Tell them you only want the lead not the test box as well as they will be more likely to lend it to you then. The lead is basically 3 x plugs, 1 of which connects to the ECU, 1 connects to the ECU loom and the last connector is designed to plug into the 1598 test box but you can still use it without one - it has all the pin numbers on the connection end and the numbers are the same as the ECU pin nos.

 

Connect the 1598/2 lead to the ECU and the ECU lead, next you will need a mechanics electrical testing screwdriver (the one with the bulb in the handle that lights up) Then remove the connector from the fuel rail to prevent the car starting. Connect the test lamp to pins 19 + 24 and operate the starter the light should flicker. This is checking the engine speed signal is functioning correctly (Not sure how it checks this as pin 19 goes to an earth on the cylinder block and pin 24 connects to the fusebox panel at connector G1 position 12.

 

Injector checking: Plug the test lamp into the fuel rail plug and crank the starter, the light should flicker, if it is permanently on then renew the earth strap that runs from the battery to the gearbox, use a new bolt when attaching strap to gearbox. If the light is still on continuously after changing the earth strap then you need a new ECU.

 

Finally my question would be, why do you have an SNS stage 5?

 

You appear to be using standard flow rate injectors and a stock cam as well so was the SNS chip written taking this into account? If not that would explain why your car is running lean - the larger flow injectors would need to be open for a shorter period. This also covers why its ok with the WOT switch cable tied, the ECU will run an over-rich mixture to enable the engine to accelerate. Any of the sensors in the digi system will only make adjustments within a set range and even then this is all controlled by the ECU. The ECU only sends out a few commands, one for ISV control, one for spark control and the other is fuel injection duration.

 

I appreciate you may well have checked a lot of this before but you have obviously replaced a lot of componenets since then and this is all from the workshop manual so it is the definitive answer to checking these components.

[Riley 0]

Yanards, I guess i could do the above by pulling the sleeving off the ecu plug and leaving it plugged in? Ive had it off before while checking stuff anyway...And the guys who i was friendly with at vw have moved to blackburn :(

 

The reason i went for the sns stage 5 was because it seemed to be what everyone else was going for at the time, i did pop some posts up with my spec and people said it would be fine as long as i gave my spec to sns...which i did (both times they sent me a chip)

 

Appreciate you digging that info out mate, just about to go to vw and pick up the gaskets.

 

Neil.

[Yandards 0]

Yanards, I guess i could do the above by pulling the sleeving off the ecu plug and leaving it plugged in? Ive had it off before while checking stuff anyway...And the guys who i was friendly with at vw have moved to blackburn :(

 

The reason i went for the sns stage 5 was because it seemed to be what everyone else was going for at the time, i did pop some posts up with my spec and people said it would be fine as long as i gave my spec to sns...which i did (both times they sent me a chip)

 

Appreciate you digging that info out mate, just about to go to vw and pick up the gaskets.

 

Neil.

 

No worries on digging the info out, you might be better off with an SNS stage 2 and fitting a 3.5 bar FPR with your setup though.