JMC's G60

[JMC 0]

Interesting though that all the subsequent runs are about the same, and there is such a huge difference especially low down. I don't have a phenolic gasket on there - I was told at the time by an eminnent engine builder that they were not worth it. Beginning to wonder now :? The rolling road set up at Surrey Rolling road uses a 'large' fan directly in fron tof the car. As you say, not the same as the road, but even so, it moves plenty of air.

[boost monkey 0]

do you have standalone oil supply for the charger?

 

if not, and this is from experience, your intake temperature will be anything up to 20deg higher than it should be.

 

Prodigal has one fitted... I don't burn my hand on the inlet manifold any more (yes it is THAT noticable).

[dirtytorque 0]

do you have standalone oil supply for the charger?

 

if not, and this is from experience, your intake temperature will be anything up to 20deg higher than it should be.

 

Prodigal has one fitted... I don't burn my hand on the inlet manifold any more (yes it is THAT noticable).

 

i remember your brother or you saying something like this before,but now its just sunk in.

Hmm.

 

 

The plots look interesting JMC.

Thnks for sharing,r u going to take it to any quarter mile events?

:)

[JMC 0]

No, I haven't got a standalone oil feed. Done a bit of digging into the background of those, and it seems they were first developed for the G40's not to cool down the chargers, but to deal with the high oil pressures blowing seals. I can see in principle how they work for the G60's, but my oil rarely gets above 85 degrees now (with the 19 row oil cooler) even on the motorway. Also with the standalone systems, they are themselves going to suffer from heat soak, as they are sat in a nice hot engine bay - the ones I have seen so far haven't got external coolers on them. The phenolic gasket is something I do like the sound of. But even with that, with everything sat in a nice hot bay when in use it will all equilibrate, but intrigued to hear what you say boostmonkey that it makes that much difference. I am hoping the group buy for Schimmel water/methanol goes ahead, as this should be a very efficient way of cooling the system.

 

You're welcome dirtytorque. The scientist in me likes to share data and try and understand what is going on. Far too often do we try and make decisions based on peoples opinions who have never even tried using equipment, but recommend it because they heard a mate talk about it in the pub. Not planned on taking it to any quarter mile events really, just trying to build something which is fun, and an exercise in seeing what is possible wih the right setup, but I'm sure if the occasion arose then I might be tempted to do a sprint :D

[dirtytorque 0]

Not planned on taking it to any quarter mile events really, just trying to build something which is fun, and an exercise in seeing what is possible wih the right setup, but I'm sure if the occasion arose then I might be tempted to do a sprint :D

 

I hear that. :salute:

 

No point unless your enjoying it.

I have never done a quarter mile though so I think It would be fun to legally thrash the pants off the thing and see what it can do.

You should consider going to the gti festival at the pod.

Could be fun.

I'll probably be the one going home behing the AA man.

:grin:

[Yandards 0]

No, I haven't got a standalone oil feed. Done a bit of digging into the background of those, and it seems they were first developed for the G40's not to cool down the chargers, but to deal with the high oil pressures blowing seals. I can see in principle how they work for the G60's, but my oil rarely gets above 85 degrees now (with the 19 row oil cooler) even on the motorway. Also with the standalone systems, they are themselves going to suffer from heat soak, as they are sat in a nice hot engine bay - the ones I have seen so far haven't got external coolers on them. The phenolic gasket is something I do like the sound of. But even with that, with everything sat in a nice hot bay when in use it will all equilibrate, but intrigued to hear what you say boostmonkey that it makes that much difference. I am hoping the group buy for Schimmel water/methanol goes ahead, as this should be a very efficient way of cooling the system.

 

You're welcome dirtytorque. The scientist in me likes to share data and try and understand what is going on. Far too often do we try and make decisions based on peoples opinions who have never even tried using equipment, but recommend it because they heard a mate talk about it in the pub. Not planned on taking it to any quarter mile events really, just trying to build something which is fun, and an exercise in seeing what is possible wih the right setup, but I'm sure if the occasion arose then I might be tempted to do a sprint :D

 

Very interesting numbers, I would be interested to see if going standalone with the ECU would also push them furthur up, everything I read seems to indicate it will - especially as Digi is such an old system now.

 

As for the initial run I agree with the comments already made, it has to be heat soak but from where and how do you combat it? I am starting to think that it might well be worth investing in a few of those self adhesive temp stickers and placing them at various points in the intake system, after all the stock intercooler was only designed to reduce temps by a max of 55 degrees, the charger puts out up to 150 deg by comparison. A furthur thought would be that even with a phenolic spacer the radiated heat from the exhaust manifold is more than enough to get the inlet manifold very hot indeed.

[boost monkey 0]

Yeah I hear what you say about heat transfer, but the difference after a hard run is still really noticable! The silver aluminium oil standalone tank doesn't really absorb much heat due to it's nature as shiny and bright coloured (tech talk), plus as Prod's car is Silver the bodywork doesn't get _too_ hot, as opposed to my burgundy.

 

You could always get some kind of finned oil tank and mount it somehere in the air flow, maybe where the horns are behind the grille? That would be _next level_! :cheers:

[junkie 0]

On the exact same set up on mine except for a management change to standalone i gained 40lb/ft which was nice and far greater boost control across the rev range.

[boost monkey 0]

Stick on thermometers are definitely a plan... I still want someone to put them on their bonnet to see whether there are any functional places to put vents.

 

I hate them, but I do love the pursuit of thermodynamic efficiencies :grin:

 

btw, if you don't care how things look, try making all the black plastic in the intake silver. It doesn't sound like much, but every little bit really does help.

[Yandards 0]

Yeah I hear what you say about heat transfer, but the difference after a hard run is still really noticable! The silver aluminium oil standalone tank doesn't really absorb much heat due to it's nature as shiny and bright coloured (tech talk), plus as Prod's car is Silver the bodywork doesn't get _too_ hot, as opposed to my burgundy.

 

You could always get some kind of finned oil tank and mount it somehere in the air flow, maybe where the horns are behind the grille? That would be _next level_! :cheers:

 

You dont need a finned tank as the one in the standalone oil kit is already aluminium, just use some CPU heatsinks.

[boost monkey 0]

Mentioned the aluminium-ness in my post that you quoted dude! :grin:

[boost monkey 0]

p.s. JMC, if you do go the heatsink route, get some copper heatsinks plus some good thermal adhesive such as Arctic Silver :salute:

[JMC 0]

Very interesting numbers, I would be interested to see if going standalone with the ECU would also push them furthur up, everything I read seems to indicate it will - especially as Digi is such an old system now.

 

As for the initial run I agree with the comments already made, it has to be heat soak but from where and how do you combat it? I am starting to think that it might well be worth investing in a few of those self adhesive temp stickers and placing them at various points in the intake system, after all the stock intercooler was only designed to reduce temps by a max of 55 degrees, the charger puts out up to 150 deg by comparison. A furthur thought would be that even with a phenolic spacer the radiated heat from the exhaust manifold is more than enough to get the inlet manifold very hot indeed.

 

Hmm, is that the stock Corrado G60 intercooler Yan? I'm running a Golf FMIC, and have cut away half my bumper to get more airflow. I wonder what that is rated as reducing the temps by? I think temp measurements are going to have to be done, and thanks for the comments and ideas guys. Keep 'em coming :D More airflow through the engine bay is the way forward - stil convinced of that (on top of charge cooling with either water, methanol or nitrous of course). Remove ambient hot air more efficiently and the temps of everything come down. When the air is stagnant then all the heat sinks in the world aren't going to do you any good....

[Cheapmods 0]

sticky heat sink thingys of which you speak

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/arc-cool-fin-universal-p-45047.html

 

saw an article in Turbo magazine, they used it on the charge pipe, and oil pan. cooled down intake charge close to 10C on an evo ix

[boost monkey 0]

sticky heat sink thingys of which you speak

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/arc-cool-fin-universal-p-45047.html

 

saw an article in Turbo magazine, they used it on the charge pipe, and oil pan. cooled down intake charge close to 10C on an evo ix

 

Aluminium is much less efficient at absorbing heat (thermal conductivity) than Copper is. Copper ftw if you can get some sinks in it.

 

Don't be fooled by copper coloured sinks, they're normally aluminium anodised to look like copper :brickwall:

 

Aluminium is good though if that's all there is to offer :salute:

[boost monkey 0]

Jonathan, could you tie lots of little ribbons to the inside of your rad and various other components, and then put a large RR fan on at the front of your car, then we can see the airflow through the engine bay :clap:

 

 

btw, you will not look at all :camp: with lots of ribbons. This is an experiment :salute:

[Yandards 0]

sticky heat sink thingys of which you speak

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/arc-cool-fin-universal-p-45047.html

 

saw an article in Turbo magazine, they used it on the charge pipe, and oil pan. cooled down intake charge close to 10C on an evo ix

 

Aluminium is much less efficient at absorbing heat (thermal conductivity) than Copper is. Copper ftw if you can get some sinks in it.

 

Don't be fooled by copper coloured sinks, they're normally aluminium anodised to look like copper :brickwall:

 

Aluminium is good though if that's all there is to offer :salute:

 

True but copper is heavy, aluminium is light and at the end of the day its all about surface area..

 

JMC, yeah thats stock intercooler cooling figures coupled with stock charger heat output figures, so a modded charger will need a bigger cooler as you would expect hotter charger exhaust temps. It is all just speculation without some hard figures though as I sure you will agree, although any form of cooling improvement, even just 5 degrees, in the charge air temp will give performance increases - its just a question of how much bang you get for your buck.

[boost monkey 0]

Good point! Copper is 1.8 times as good as shifting heat as Ally, but Copper is 3x denser! :shock:

 

go with the ally then I reckon, good call Yan.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I think the difference between 1st and subsequent runs *could* be S/C heat soak.

 

Exactly the same thing used to happen on my Vortech. The 1st run was always superb. Everything is cold and oxygen rich.

Subsequent runs showed a marked decrease in torque.

 

Thinking about how a V9 Vortech can barely fill a VR6 in the first place, it gets worse when the charger itself starts getting really hot and pushing out even hotter, thinner air.

 

Just a theory anyway, based on what I've seen on force fed VRs.

 

One thing I'm going to play with is this - http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/fuel-coolers.html

 

Ever notice how your engine feels much perkier just after you've filled it up? The fuel stored under the ground at Shell et al is massively colder than the remaining couple of gallons in your tank, which get warmed up by the exhaust and also probably lose a bit of calorific value.

 

My theory is chilled fuel all of the time will give more consistent results. For the cost of it, it's certainly worth a punt and I'll let you know.

 

Neat Meth injection will certainly help and if you're brave, stick 30% Nitromethane in with it. Nitro has oxygen chemically bonded to it, so burns incredibly easily and has a huge octane rating.

As I say you have to be brave as it's very volatile!!

[dirtytorque 0]

/\/\/\ looks very interesting especially if the price isn't prohibitive.

Heat is the enemy. :twisted:

Do you think the 16valve layout fairs better in this respect because the air intake ports are not so close to the exhaust system?

[Yandards 0]

I think the difference between 1st and subsequent runs *could* be S/C heat soak.

 

Exactly the same thing used to happen on my Vortech. The 1st run was always superb. Everything is cold and oxygen rich.

Subsequent runs showed a marked decrease in torque.

 

Thinking about how a V9 Vortech can barely fill a VR6 in the first place, it gets worse when the charger itself starts getting really hot and pushing out even hotter, thinner air.

 

Just a theory anyway, based on what I've seen on force fed VRs.

 

One thing I'm going to play with is this - http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/fuel-coolers.html

 

Ever notice how your engine feels much perkier just after you've filled it up? The fuel stored under the ground at Shell et al is massively colder than the remaining couple of gallons in your tank, which get warmed up by the exhaust and also probably lose a bit of calorific value.

 

My theory is chilled fuel all of the time will give more consistent results. For the cost of it, it's certainly worth a punt and I'll let you know.

 

Neat Meth injection will certainly help and if you're brave, stick 30% Nitromethane in with it. Nitro has oxygen chemically bonded to it, so burns incredibly easily and has a huge octane rating.

As I say you have to be brave as it's very volatile!!

 

Indeed the aircraft I currently work on use an intercooler in the fuel tank to cool the engine oil and preheat the fuel slightly, colder fuel works in the same way as water injection - the cooler you can get the intake area the greater the power you will make.

[boost monkey 0]

Nitro is good stuff. As said it is volatile, but not from explosion, but actually from shock forces. it's ~50% oxygen by weight and so burns for a lot longer when in the chamber.

 

I've read in performance tuning books that anything over 20% nitro can easily make it's way past the rings, and even explode in the hot sump oil underneath! :shock:

[JMC 0]

I suppose this is the reason why the boost retrun is supposed to give a slight increase in power - no recirculating of already heated air back into the supercharger. Shame the noise and oil vapours in the engine bay really wound me up to the point of putting the pipe back on. Must be getting old :lol: I like the idea of the fuel cooler. Seen that suggested before in the book "How to build a fast road car" as one of the recommended upgrades for supercharged cars (although oddly enough it didn't mention it for turbo'd ones :shrug: ). The more I read peoples comments and the more I think about this, brings me back to finding the best way of monitoring air temps at different points along the intake...

[JMC 0]

Here's a new one. I've plotted the boost pressure from my old toothed belt system (pulley about 67mm AFAIK), and my 65mm pulley (both on my old head and block and with a vernier pulley), vs the 68mm pulley on my new head and block (and no vernier). Excuse the lines - they are a bit rough and ready as they are averages of a few runs.

 

Now I've been wondering abou this. Boost pressure for a given system is really a measure of how inefficient that system is at flowing gas (the more the blockages the higher the pressure), so here's the question.... If the new system (the 68mm pulley with a 1.9l engine and 4 branch manifold) flows gas more efficiently, I would expect the boost pressure to actually be lower than the old 1.8 engine, with the original manifold and 65mm pulley, but it's to be higher (especially as the charger is spinning slower)?? Please can someone one with more thermodynamics knowledge come forward as my brain hurts :confused4:

[dirtytorque 0]

the 4 branch would aid flow ,but with greater CC more time may be needed to get rid of the exhaust gasses.Your exhaust cam duration may have been optimal for your 1.8 setup but not for your 1.9.

Thus maybe you have some exhaust back pressure in the system ?

:shrug: