JMC's G60

[JMC 0]

Because Charlie is lazy mate, and doesn't like getting underneath the car :lol: . To be honest it's just easier for him to do that. When it's mapped we replace the standard narrow band with a wideband, so I know thats done right, but for the dyno runs, I just need a good indication more than anything else. If anything it is running a little rich around 4800 now, but with a Schrick going on in the next few weeks (along with WI) , everything will need doing again anyway. And yep, it is a 92 G60. If you fancy a trip over from Reading let me know, I'm about 25mins away :D

[dirtytorque 0]

i'll prolly take you up on that.

 

:)

[boost monkey 0]

oooh ooh, i wanna play too!

[JMC 0]

Cors' mate, just drop me a PM if you plan on being in the area....

[Trakx 0]

What injectors / FPR are you using?

[g60karmann 0]

do you fancy having a g60 meet, would be cool to get together chat and check out cars, maybe even a g60 rolling road day?

[CTWG60 0]

I'd be up for that when the new engine goes in and has been mapped. What are you managing on the rollers at the wheels at the moment G60Karmann your spec is pretty close to mine. It would have to be at stealth to get good attendance from north and south although if the southeners are prepared to travel doing a day at Awesome has great benefits as the cars are posted on the internet with pictures a video and graphs and you can compare your car directly with others that have ben on the same rollers. :) Hours of fun to be had!

[CTWG60 0]

If you look at the runs I've done from originally getting the car, the 1st run on any given day is always drastically different from the subsequent ones. There is huge amounts more boost pressure lower down, and as a result masses more torque, but this disappears and after the 1st run. Every set of data I've looked at for mine does this. I wonder whether others get this too, but as you normally only see the last power run, you wouldn't normally see this. I was thinking heat soak, and still am really (even with my new openned up bumper), as I can't think what else it would be :?

 

One thing I forgot to mention.... A few pages ago I put this up, wondering why the 1st run was so different to the subsequent runs. While I was at the rolling road we did some runs with the bonnet up as opposed to the usual bonnet down. Raising the bonnet resulted in this '1st run' type of behaviour again and again and again. Basically the torque curve changes completely (gaining as much as 20lbft lower down in the revs) and the peak power drops by 5-10bhp. When I get the data from Charlie I'll do my usual graph plots an put them up. But it just goes to show how important it is to consider cooling and air flow are when tuning your engine (and measuring its output).

 

Does Charlie have a big cooling fan/blower at the front of the vehicles?

[JMC 0]

He does have one about 4 feet across. In my opinion it is good, but nothing like driving on the road. This seemed to be born out when we did the bonnet open with bonnet closed comparison.

[g60karmann 0]

I haven't got figures of the latest kit yet, still got to get the charge cooler pump and header tank sorted the way I want it and also get my cam, then it will be a re-map and RR session. Before I got most of the parts on, when I just had the exhaust and air filter I got 178.9bhp @ flywheel, so I hope I am going to be in the 215-225 mark after the re-map

[JMC 0]

I haven't got figures of the latest kit yet, still got to get the charge cooler pump and header tank sorted the way I want it and also get my cam, then it will be a re-map and RR session. Before I got most of the parts on, when I just had the exhaust and air filter I got 178.9bhp @ flywheel, so I hope I am going to be in the 215-225 mark after the re-map

 

Interested to see what you get when it's all up and running - the mapping will transform it after any major mods. Flywheel measurements tend to vary quite a bit from place to place, as the corrections from wheel to flywheel are done pretty much on what the owners think (and with some places to make people feel better about their cars). Surrey Rolling Road is a good place and seems very accurate, and just down the road from me at Longcross. Someone normally organises a rolling road session about this time of year - worth keeping an eye out in the Events section.

[g60karmann 0]

That reading was from when I went to the stealth meet I think the wheel reading was about 165bhp

 

Out of interest I have only ever used pre-programmed chips and never had a Live map done, any recommendations on where to get it done and how much I should expected to pay?

[g60karmann 0]

oh yeah have you got the water / meth up and running yet? I'm still thinking about nitrous injection :D

[JMC 0]

oh yeah have you got the water / meth up and running yet? I'm still thinking about nitrous injection :D

 

For the live mapping then Steve (as in ex-Pitstop Developments) is your man. It's a hairy experience by the way as you need to go through the revs in different gears. Best to talk with G-Werks about that as he is the one they use. Cost varies depending on how much work needs doing (whether you are just tweaking a chip or whether you are starting from scratch). Expect to pay a few hundred though. Water injection is (fingers crossed) being sorted later this month when I get a Schrick cam as well :cheers: . Nitrous, well I've been having a good chat with Trev at Wizards of Nos about how best to do this. Direct port is needed given that recirc nature of the throttle body and charger, however the only realistic location is round the back of the inlet manifold - which of course is about the hottest location in the engine bay as it is directly above the exhaust manifold. I am off up north in a month or so, so am planning on stopping off at their workshop and having a bit more of a direct chat with them about the best way to do it. Could be my winter project though if all goes to plan. Let me know if you are down this way - always good to meet a fellow G60 owner :)

[boost monkey 0]

could you not tap into each of the 4 inlet tracts on the head side of the inlet manifold and inject your dinitrogen monoxide formula there?

[JMC 0]

Yeah thats the idea with the direct port injection Jon. Tap into each runner of the inlet manifold so each cylinder gets the right amount of nitrous and fuel. Only problem is of course is that the inlet manifold sits directly above the exhaust manifold on the G60 (and it's even worse with me having a 4 branch as they're not as good insulators as the orignal cast iron ones). Probably need to add some heat shielding in there. Going to aim to visit the Wizards of Nos next time I am back up north - be a lot easier to chat with them face to face with the car there.

[boost monkey 0]

Ah yeah, course. Making sense now :D Sounds like you're keeping busy with the whole thing! I hope to get back into a lot of CAD designs when term starts :salute:

[JMC 0]

I have another one of my rolling road maps for you. This was a comparison of bonnet up vs bonnet down during the run. This all came about becuase of a recent chat with Charlie at Surrey Rolling Road regarding cooling, and why my rr plots were always substantially different between the 1st and all the subsequent runs. What we did here was a few runs with the bonnet down (as per usual), then lifted the bonnet and did a few more runs. Basically all the down ones looked similar, all the up ones looked similar, so what I have plotted is a typical one from each. Massive difference in terms of low down torque, but also top end power....

[mrbeige 0]

Hmm, do you have any sort of cold air feed? Or is the Air filter in the normal position?

[JMC 0]

AIr filter in the normal position, but a cold air feed from the grill in the lower part of the front bumper and air box has been cut open to let that cold air in easier.

[dirtytorque 0]

hmmm..

 

g60's generate alot of heat.

Stealing power. :)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Interesting stuff! I like the scientific and thorough approach your taking with this :D

 

Having the bonnet closed seems to have the edge at the top end doesn't it?

 

Maybe in this scenario, the exhaust manifold is hotter and therefore the exhaust scavenging is better?

 

And when the bonnet is open, intake temp a little cooler, which improves torque?

 

Perhaps a bonnet vent over the intake side of the engine would be a good compromise of the two?

 

Certainly with turbos, it pays to keep as much heat in the exhaust as a possible....

[JMC 0]

Interesting stuff! I like the scientific and thorough approach your taking with this :D

 

Cheers Kev, thats me always the scientist :D

 

Having the bonnet closed seems to have the edge at the top end doesn't it?

 

Maybe in this scenario, the exhaust manifold is hotter and therefore the exhaust scavenging is better?

 

And when the bonnet is open, intake temp a little cooler, which improves torque?

 

Perhaps a bonnet vent over the intake side of the engine would be a good compromise of the two?

 

Certainly with turbos, it pays to keep as much heat in the exhaust as a possible....

 

Yep, the scavenging at the top end was my thought too. Interesting to look at the boost pressure during the 2 runs as well (as attached below). In the colder situation it reaches peak boost much earlier (hence the massively enhanced torque curve). This presumably could be to do with, heat soak in the intercooler, hot air recirc through the charger and pipework, or the fact that the piepwork is hot in general. I think alot of this is academic though - persoanlly I think real driving conditions will be somewhere in between these two sceanrios as there will be a lot more air flow than you get at a dyno. As you say though, the ideal situation would be a vent over the inlet side, but I would also say some heat decent shielding between the exhaust manifold and inlet manifold.

[CTWG60 0]

Interesting results there. Only ever had my car run on rollers with the bonnet up. My car seems to drop around 20bhp at around 6k can only be retard/boost bleed due to knock and is very obvious in the graph. Although on the road I can only reproduce this by doing consecutive QM runs without any normal driving in between. When it happens you can feel the car pull back. I'm sure this is due to the gwerks ss mani heat soaking the head and inlet manifold and happens every time on the RR due to the lack of air suction under the car maybe, next time I'll ask them to do a run with the bonnet down see if it still does it!

 

Could be a faulty ISV I suppose but it's just too consistent.

 

This is a graph I got on greens before I went to reds (reds get me to 6k before it drops) as you can see it drops at 5800rpm or there abouts.

[mrbeige 0]

AIr filter in the normal position, but a cold air feed from the grill in the lower part of the front bumper and air box has been cut open to let that cold air in easier.

When you say air box, do you mean the standard one? If so, having the box cut open would draw in more warm air from the bay, wouldn't it? I've seen some people put the air filter behind the liner in the wheel arch, with the pipe to it coming up through the hole where the carbon canister normally sits, do you think moving the air filter down there might help with lower intake air temps. Also, what about using one of those thermal manifold gaskets that stop heat being transferred through from exhaust manifold into the head then from the head into the inlet? I found a company called Ferriday Engineering that do them for around £45 each, for the PD block! :dorky: I mean for the sake of under £100, it must be worth a shot?

 

Is you exhaust manifold heat wrapped as well?