VR6 timing problem

[MarkGolf 0]

I can't quite seem to get it 100% correct..

 

I have the cams locked with the VAG tool, crank shaft and intermediate shaft are all lined up to correct timing marks, the top cover is placed on and tension bolt inserted, the chain is perfectly tight...

 

So I give the crank 2 full rotations and I got to put the cam locking tool in but its VERY stiff to get it into the cam grooves. To get the tool to fit in freely, the timing mark on the crank shaft pulley has to be about 5 - 8mm past (Clockwise) the mark on the engine block..

 

Is this ok??

 

Everything bar the sprockets are brand new and if I move the intermediate sprocket one tooth back/forward on the chain, the timing is then WAY out... This is obvious anyway as one jump of the tooth on the intermediate sprocket equals quite a large jump on the crank shaft pulley timing marks

 

Please advise!

 

Thanks

[MarkGolf 0]

No one know?

[VRTrickster 0]

Are they aftermarket performance cams?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Use the timing notch on the crank pulley and corresponding mark on the block and start over.

 

Intermediate shaft needs to point north.

 

If you have to start from scratch, use a long wooden dowel in the plug hole and find the centre dwell point on cyl 1. Making sure the cam lobes aren't pressing the valves open, rock the crank back and forth until the piston neither moves up or down....that is TDC and the crank pulley markings should align. Then see where the cam slots are then and realign the chain as necessary.

[VRTrickster 0]

I think Ill try that when I re do my cam timing again on Saturday kev! I'm having the same thing with my 264 cams. The bottom timing marks are spot on but the cams are about a mm out of parallel with the cam tool.

Would this cause an over fuelling problem which I was having before I stripped it again to re do the timing?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah if you have to force the tool in, the timing is off. Are the cams tilting toward the bulkhead or the radiator?

 

I've seen engines run with alignment like yours and it they go on for a while with no obvious signs, apart from a lack of urge at the top, depending if they're advanced or retarted but the biggest issue is eventually the exhaust valves will burn out......takes a good few K to do that tho.

 

Try resetting using the crank pulley markings, it should be OK then. The markings on the pressure plate (flywheel inspection hole) are can be misleading as there's two of them!

 

When you put the chain over the sprockets, you shouldn't have to force it. If they take a bit of effort to get on, the timing will be off.

 

You'll know when it's right because when the chain is on and the tool is in, there should be a bit of slack between the two sprockets, and then when you screw the tensioner bolt in, the slack is taken up and there'll be about 2-3mm slack. Crank the engine round a few times by hand and then recheck the alignment, then turn her over with the crank sensor disconnected to build up oil pressure, check again. When you're happy, reassemble the top end and fire her up.

[VRTrickster 0]

I think there leaning to the bulk head ,but Ill have to double check. Will burn out exhaust valves cause over fuelling? I dont have to force the tool in but it may be thinner than a vw one? I have been using the crank shaft and have now taken the gearbox off to be really sure as it is driving me nuts!

I havent done a comp test which I should have done before hand silly me!

Can I do a comp test by hand? Im going to put the original cams back in to see how they line up ,and if the same thing occurs it can only be a head or injector problem surely?

[MarkGolf 0]

iI've followed a bentley and Russel manual..

 

The engine is hanging in my garage, all brand new parts bar the sprockets.

New OE gasket..

 

The timing marks are all aligned, chains are tight, tensioner bolt bled and fitted and doin its job properly, everything is textbook! As soon as you give it at least 2 full rotations, the markings are all slightly out from the block markings... 5mm on the crank pulley.. If you redo the timing over and over again, you get the same result. If you advance the intermediate sprocket, the timing goes WAYYYYYYY out and same if you reverse it..

 

I can't win!

 

Cams are coorect and OE corrado, chains are OE VW, tensioners are OE, head hasn't been skimmed as its near new... What is wrong!?

[PhatVR6 0]

timing will only be correct every 4 revolutions.

 

if the intermediate sprocket mark isn't lined up then the cams will not be.

 

keep turning it until the intermediate sprocket is correct again, I bet the cams line up.

[VRTrickster 0]

MarkGolf, I now how you feel mate having the same problem! What were the cams lining up like before you took them out? Going to spend a whole day trying to get mine right at the weekend ! :mad:

 

Good luck!

[andy 0]

Phat's right, you need 4 revolutions to get the marks all lined up again. 2 won't do it.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah good point Phat, I forgot to mention that. After 4 revolutions and the intermediate shaft pointing north and the crank pulley notch lined up, the cams should be spot on.

 

If doing in situ, you can use a telescopic dentist mirror in the flywheel inspection hole to check the inter's position.

[VRTrickster 0]

Right 4 turns ,Ill try that !

[PhatVR6 0]

EDIT: double post due to slow forum....

[PhatVR6 0]

I had the same problem when i did the head gasket on my 4 motion.

 

Did the cams on the R32 lump, got the timing cock on first time.

 

Something moved when I did the HG on the 2.8 and it took me a whole day to get it right. Even harder when the bloody sprockets actually twist around on the end of the cams!! fecking VVT, not fun. had to try giving it a full tuen, then trying to set it. no good, give it another full turm, try again. it's in there somewhere.

[VRTrickster 0]

Ill try spinning it round more times but if it still ends up that mm out of parallel on the cam tool ,would this cause my fuelling problem?

If it wouldn't can I build her back up and assume its something else like the head or injectors? should I go by a dowel in the plug hole and feel for tdc and not use the intermediate and crank mark. Line up the cams and fit the chain then give it a try?

[goodridge 0]

Oh er, we jus did this on a Vento VR. Didnt have any problems :?

This may help

http://www.corrado-club.ca/forum/ultima ... =001122;p=

[2cc 0]

I did a how to guide on here; might be worth a read :wink:

(admit there are a couple of bits still need editing tho', must do that one day)

[MarkGolf 0]

Right, just been out fiddlin with the engine..

 

Everything is in line with each other, all timing marks point in the direction they are meant to and all correlate..

 

When turning the engine over CLOCKWISE, no matter how many revolutions I give it, the crank pulley timing mark is always 3mm past the timing mark on the block before the cam locking tool sits flat and slides in and out comfortably! I can however, bring the crank BACK 3mm so it all looks correct and the tool still slides in and out comfortably!!

 

However, if I turn the engine and match the crank pulley timing marks up as text book suggests, the tool requires a little effort to get it to slide into the cams..

 

THE TWIST!

 

If I rotate the engine ANTI CLOCKWISE, it is PERFECT! I can stop the crank pulley on the timing mark and the cam tool slides in and out perfectly EVERYTIME, 2 revolutions, 4 revolutions, 6 and so on....

 

Does this indicate anything?

 

Im not sure if I can leave it and assume its OK...

 

Thanks

[2cc 0]

Just a thought, which end are you looking at when you say clock or anti-clock? If you are turning it backwards then the marks will not line up as the 'slack' side of the chain, rather than the tensioned side, will pull the cams.

[MarkGolf 0]

The engine crank pulley side directly in front of me.. Front of engine is at my right hand side and rear of engine is at my left hand side..

 

I had a go at trying to see what was giving the minor 3mm movement but couldn't quite see..

 

All I coudl see was when turning the engine clockwise, the LOWER tensioner compressing a little, it didn't do this when turning the engine anti clockwise but that is due to the direction of the chain movement so I understand that..

[2cc 0]

Mark, that is weird isn't it. Thought about it on the way home last night and the only thing I can think of that could possibly cause that is very worn sprockets and/or very worn/stretched chains. Wish I'd done a rotation check on the old ones before replacing my chains now. Almost goes without saying that my new ones are spot on.

Haven't read the whole thread before writing this so can't recall whether you have just reassembled with new bits or not?

But I'm definitely curious about this now, especially as I have a couple of chain jobs queued up for when my garage is finished - not long now.

 

edit: just looked at page one, new chains. So am even more curious now

[PhatVR6 0]

mark, read my reply to your PM on ED36. you have to turn the engine clockwise or the tension in the chain won't be correct.

[VRTrickster 0]

Did you get it sorted mate?

[MarkGolf 0]

Hello

 

Its a bugger, I just don't know why it goes wrong when being turned clockwise but is 100% perfect when turned anti clockwise!

 

Only turned it anti clockwise to see what would happen Paul which then gave me the weird outcome of being perfect.. Would this indicate that there is a probably with the chain tension?

 

Not had time to work on getting it right but I really am stumped!!

 

New chains, new tensioners, no slack in the chains.. I just can't see where its gone wrong..

 

3mm out after turning crank 4 full revolutions clockwise

Perfect when turning crank 4 full revolutions anti clockwise

 

When turning anti clockwise, the lower tensioner FULLY compresses, thats the only difference that I can see between turning clockwise and anti clockwise!

 

Going to have another go after work tomorrow, I'll probably end up pulling it apart and starting over, even though I've done this already! I have spare sprockets, may try those out for the sake of it!

 

This is more of a head fuck than trying to work out a womans mind!