The Forced Induction 16V Thread

[vwdeviant 0]

OK Why should you 6-banger boys should have your own thread?

 

Any-one have recommendations on the dos and don'ts of Turbo/Supercharging (or even both like the new Folg GT?) a 16v?

 

What Kits? What Charger? Intercoolers? BMC's Fueling etc...

[Dec 1]

Should keep myself involved in this one anyway! :D

 

I'm just really getting started on the turbo conversion now.....Plans are (subject to being changed as I change my mind every few days/learn something new):

 

edited bit: Fully rebuilt block and head, S2 rods and Turbotechnics pistons comp ratio of 7.8:1

 

T3 or T3/T4 hybrid (not yet bought)

Tubular turbo manifold and 38mm wastegate

28" x 5.5" x 3" FMIC

Megasquirt II V3 ECU (Christmas prezzie to myself I think)

Water injection (not yet bought)

02j Gearbox from a 1.8T Leon

Vr6 clutch

Billet steel lightweight flywheel

BMC CDA (not yet bought)

Full s/s Scorpion exhaust system (still need the turbo downpipe)

 

And a big list of other parts!

[mrbeige 0]

Some thoughts...

 

Inlet Manifolds

Audi S2 with 5th runner cut off

Modified 20v

ABF

Custom

 

Exhaust Manifolds

Audi S2 with 5th runner cut off

20v with adapter (they are available somewhere)

Custom

 

Management

G60 ECU

Megasquirt

Omex

Emerald

DTA

 

Blocks to choose from...

9a }

6a } all with with spacer or custom pistons

ABF }

KR with spacer or S2 pistons

2e (8v) with 16v head, intermediate shaft and crank pulley

 

Turbo's

Erm.... :lol: Turbo specification is still a dark art to me at the mo

[Dec 1]

Oh yeah, sorry! :oops:

 

The block and head etc have already been completely rebuilt and are still waiting patiently in my garage!

 

S2 rods and turbotechnics pistons 7.8:1 comp ratio.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

OK Why should you 6-banger boys should have your own thread?

 

Because we're bigger and better..... and my Dad is tougher than your Dad :lol:

 

Only jesting....

 

I've stickied this as I think there's a tonne of potential in that there valver......and I know from experience having had a 16V Turbo myself in a long and distant past ;-)

[vwdeviant 0]

Cheers Kev Lurve ya ;)

[eatthis 0]

do the 8 valvers get there own thread?

[veedub 0]

My main question is to either throw in a 1.8t or turbo my current valver??

Nowt is gonna happen for a little while so im gonna let this thread mature and make my decision then!!

[Dec 1]

A big cost in the 16vt conversion that a lot of people seem to overlook or underestimate the cost of is the uprated pistons + rods etc.

 

Pistons

 

rods

 

From what I've read up on the conversions I wouldn't waste my time with the thick copper headgasket route to lower the standard compression ratio.

[mrbeige 0]

A big cost in the 16vt conversion that a lot of people seem to overlook or underestimate the cost of is the uprated pistons + rods etc.

 

Pistons

 

rods

 

From what I've read up on the conversions I wouldn't waste my time with the thick copper headgasket route to lower the standard compression ratio.

 

I'm sure I've seen quite a few conversions successfully using spacer gaskets. As long as you are careful with your boost levels and have a well mapped management, you wouldn't necessarily have any problems.

 

I'm not saying its the best route to go down, just that it can be done successfully with a spacer.

 

Plus if you are on a tight budget, pistons and rods are quite a lot more cash than a spacer!

[Lippy 0]

right no time to read this yet, but I'll be along tomorrow.

 

:D

[dnac 0]

So what do you have to do to turbo the 2.0 16V? Is it just (hmm easy when you say it quick!!) change to uprated rods and lower comp pistons, or is there a whole host of throttle body and injector / ecu changes to be done?

 

Not to mention where do you get the feed and drain for the turbo oil?

 

and will it fit?

 

Is it just as easy to shell out for the QPE ECU and stick a 1.8T in there?

[vwdeviant 0]

So any-one do a kit to G60 the 16v or do I need to look at Vortech and the like??

[Yandards 0]

So any-one do a kit to G60 the 16v or do I need to look at Vortech and the like??

 

Yes several companies but no-one over here unless you count Daz at G-werks importing what few BBM kits are left over.

 

The problem you will have is the brake servo, all the kits are designed for left hand drive cars and move the alt to the back of the engine - right where the brake servo is on UK spec cars. As such you will need to fab some brackets so you can mount a VR style alternator under the charger - where the aircon normally goes is an ideal place.

 

I would also bin the tensioner system and just use the spring on the alt ala 2.0l MK.III goofs and IIRC the later 'rados too.

 

As for the rest of the parts, exhaust manifold is already pretty good on a valver but I would get it gasket matched, you will benefit from changing the downpipe to a much more free-flowing one as FI requires no back pressure unlike NA.

 

Have a look here for good bolt on bits and solutions to many of the 16vG60 installtion issues.

 

http://www.rp-motorsport.de/en/g-lader/16v-g60-powerkit.htm

 

S2 pistons and rods will give you around 8.5:1 in a KR block although you can run higher 9.5:1 is about the max I would recommend. (Original VWM engine ran 8.8:1)

[vwdeviant 0]

Wow so Crank, w/pump, alt and g-lader all run from same belt!

But doesn't seem to be a link to the cams...

 

And does it need digifant?

[Blue_Joe 0]

Wow so Crank, w/pump, alt and g-lader all run from same belt!

But doesn't seem to be a link to the cams...

 

And does it need digifant?

 

It's exactly the same belt setup as the 8V G60 - Just the alternator has to be moved to the rear of the engine.

 

The only link to the cams is that teh Crank has 2 pulleys on it. an inner one that the timing belt runs on and an outer larger pulley that the charger belt runs on!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

From what I've read up on the conversions I wouldn't waste my time with the thick copper headgasket route to lower the standard compression ratio.

 

You wouldn't want to use copper anyway as you have to wire the block.

 

You would use a late ABF (2.0 16v?) gasket from VW, split the outer layers and use with a stainless spacer. They work well.

 

The best 'mechanical' CR reduction method if you're on a budget is to offset bush some new gudgeon pin bearings to drop the piston down a mill. Worked perfectly on my old valver turbo. Gives you a chance to fit a decent helix clutch and rehone the bores etc whilst you're there. If the block is under 100K, unlikely to need a rebuild. They're strong as oxes.

 

It's a bl00dy good engine the valver turbo. Super smooth and torquey. I highly recommend it. I sold mine 5 years ago and still have vivid memories about it now!

[mrbeige 0]

The best 'mechanical' CR reduction method if you're on a budget is to offset bush some new gudgeon pin bearings to drop the piston down a mill.

 

Is that the sort of thing you can do yourself, or do you need to get an engineering firm to do it?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

You can build the motor yourself, which in the case of the Valver is an absolute doddle, but I would get a machine shop to do the gudgeon pin bearings for you. Stealth have a lot of experience of doing that as they've built about 25 or so 16V T's. You can buzz a honer around the bores yourself with a cordless drill, they're not that expensive. I've never seen 16V bores ovalise, so wang some new rings in and it'll keep going for a long time.

 

The valver bottom end with stock rods and pistons and gudgeon pin mod can cope with about 275-300hp. The 16V flavour 02A with a decent clutch (helix) can take that also. Go steel rods and forged pistons and you can get a lot more out of it. Just depends on budget really.

 

300hp and matching torque would be a totally different car for you :-) No more waiting until 4500rpm for some action. You get a hard kick from 3000 all the way to 7K 8)

[mrbeige 0]

You can build the motor yourself, which in the case of the Valver is an absolute doddle, but I would get a machine shop to do the gudgeon pin bearings for you. Stealth have a lot of experience of doing that as they've built about 25 or so 16V T's. You can buzz a honer around the bores yourself with a cordless drill, they're not that expensive. I've never seen 16V bores ovalise, so wang some new rings in and it'll keep going for a long time.

 

So something like this attached to a crudless drill then?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I prefer the ball type myself. It's like a bog brush, but has loads of little abrasive balls instead of the method used by Draper's there. Either way, they do the job of 'scruffing' up the bores just fine. You'll probably find your block still has the factoring honing marks anyway but that's just a sign of a babied engine from new ;-) A hard driven lump will be shiney on the thrust side and that's when valvers get fast ;-)

[mrbeige 0]

So why would you want to rough up the bores then?

[VEEDUBBED 0]

Not absolutly nessesary but adding ARP or raceware headstuds gives peice of mind.

I've got a few tips for anyone contemplating a possible turbo setup:

For manic acceleration but fu#k all top end go for a T3Garret turbo with a .36 A/R exhaust turbine,for top end try a .48 or a .63 one.

when using the 20v Audi 5cyl ex. manifold be carefull because the turbo will be smacked up against the bulkhead if using a .60 A/R Garret T3/4,normal T3's with .42 A/R's are fine,also,if your car's fitted with ABS remember to carefully measure the turbo's downpipe to avoid the pipe rubbing on the ABS's heat sheild.

Oil drains have to be made so that the drive shaft does'nt interfere on full bump travel,sumps are drilled just below the sumps mounting bolts flange,if your unsure just unbolt the sump and add 4 litres of water to see were the drainpoint should be without draining into the engine oil.

Coolant lines can be taken from the O/E oil cooler's water pipes and feed back to turbo,this entails fitting an aftermarket oil cooler such as the Volvo 740 turbos or earlier golf gti's jobbie,if not use the heater's pipes.

Adding 2 'ABF' headgaskets is a good idea witch i personally did a 2.0 9A G60 valver and 2 turbo 16valvers with no problems.

I recommend ebay for nearly all the stuff your going to need,manifold,turbo,injectors,chips and so on,i have yet to receive a faulty component exept for the 5cyl turbo exhaust manifold that had a few small cracks,but they welded up easily.

Hope this info. helps and if you get stuck just post up on the forum because someone,somewere has already done what your going to do and knows the pitfalls.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

What he /\ says, all good info.

 

RE scruffing up bores, the 'scratches' hold oil to help lubricate new engine parts during bed in. To bed it in, get up to temp and then drain and refill (normal oil), then take it out and blast it round to 6K 3 or 4 times and it's done. 'Babying' the motor during bed in won't give the same results in the long run.

 

It's not absolutely necessary if the engine is healthy, but whilst it's apart doing the ARP bolts, CR reduction etc, it's just nice to stick some new rings in there at the same time.

[LowG 0]

There are many ways to turbo a 16v, each way has its own benefits and its limits. The power goal is very important. You can build a 16v to produce 250-600+hp so its all in the parts and methods used to make up the engine.

 

Block.

Its wise to start off with a bigger block i.e. the 9a 2l one, from start you are getting extra cc to help spool the turbo whatever its size. Stock blocks can take around 300hp when the compression ratio is lowered. The 1.8 can also be used and strength wise should be the same as the 9a. 8v tall blocks 236mm can also be used like ones found on the mk3 gti. The compression ratio with this block and 16v head should be around 8:1 perfect for boost. Although you must switch parts on the 8v block such as 9a oil pump, auxiliary shaft, crank pulley so the 16v timing belt can be used.

 

My way of doing it is building the 16v block in hand, that way you will have piece of mind on the bottom end and achieve proper compression ratio.

If we have a 9a block best way of doing it is to overbore to 83.5mm and mate it to a matching wiesco pistons and a set of eagle rods with Arp bolts. This bumps up the cc to 2038. I would then install a metal headgasket from a mk3 gti with Arp head bolts.

Now this block setup would be 600hp+ capable.

 

Head.

 

Main objective on the head is to increase flow further. If you can get the head ported and flowed, mild cams are a good idea, anything with around 11.5mm lift should give good gains in hp and torque. If you use big turbo then the cams used will affect the spooling of the turbo.

 

Turbo

There is a huge turbo selection for the 16v. My choice would be a GT2871 Garrett ball bearing turbo, its not too laggy and its 440hp capable. Now this turbo will do 300hp perfectly and be very efficient. Anything smaller than this on the 16v it’s a waste in my opinion. We have the flow so must make use of it. For supper quick spool up and those wanting only around 330hp then the GT28RS is the solution.

 

Both of those turbos can be run with internal wastegates and be efficient so that can save up on running an external one.

 

The slightly bigger turbos you can use are the GT30R 550hp capable and the GT35R 650hp capable. The 30R should produce full boost by 4000rpm and the 35R by around 4700rpm. I use the 35R and I love it, I see boost from 2900rpm!!

 

Manifolds/exhaust system

 

The stock inlet manifold can be used, however it’s not ideal, it’s prone to heat soaking due to being on top of valve cover and server not much purpose on a turbo car. As been said modified Audi S2 is one choice or a custom one. The length of the boost pipes will be shortened greatly.

 

Turbo manifold it’s the next step, cast manifolds can be used, I think kinetic makes one, and eip has ran out of theirs. I wouldn’t use the modified Audi s2, they are restrictive.

The other choice would be a tubular manifold, if you are looking for one contact me as I do fabricate them. Tubular manifolds are bit more laggy but the top end power is phenomenal!

 

The downpipe for 300hp 2.5" is ok, over that I would only do it 3". Having a 3" all the way system would be the best.

 

ECU

 

The starting point would be the G60 digifant ecu, the SNS boys can provide chips to run up to 15psi of boost. That can be around 350hp depending on the turbo used.

Other option would be to run a standalone. Good choices would be megasquirt,034efi,sds, haltech.

 

 

Like I said the engine itself can make loads of power, it’s all about flow. The volumetric efficiency of the 16v makes it a better engine to be used in FI as when compared to the VR6.

 

The problem you will have when making big power is putting the power down. The 02a gearbox and driveshaft’s start to fail around 350-400hp. LSD is needed and maybe some street slicks. 4wd is another option but maybe too much work for some.

 

 

 

If anyone is interested in pursuing this project I can source most parts to carry this out. I will be doing pistons/conrod combo deals for the 1.8 and 2l 16v blocks consisting of wiesco/eagle at good prices.

 

16V engine is a great platform, I just wish more people would go this route instead of 20vt.

 

There is soo much info to go in here i cannot put through one post. So if you guys have anything buggin you this is a great thread to deal with it and share experiences.

 

regards