Definitive G60 Timing Belt Setting

[Yandards 0]

After spending some considerable time on Saturday working out where the timing marks are on the G60 I now feel I can categorically state just WTF is going on.

 

First of all start by removing the plug from the gearbox that allows you to see the timing marks on the flywheel, you want to rotate the crank to get the mark with a small '0' above it directly under the 'V' on the gearbox housing as in Figure 1.Corrado conversion V2 (3).pdfFigure 1.JPG[/attachment:3ombw9pb] This is a lot more accurate than using the mark on the pulley and the cam cover as the flywheel is a very precise fit onto the crank and being larger in diameter it is possible to set it to a more exact point.

 

Next you will need to set up the intermediate shaft, the dot on the pulley has to sit in the 'V' cutout on the serpentine belt pulley on the crank. As once again a picture speaks a thousand words look at Figure 2.Book1.pdfFigure 2.jpg[/attachment:3ombw9pb]

 

To set the distributor to No.1 TDC you will need to align the centre of the rotor arm with the 1mm cutout in the plastic shield (Figure 10), the picture is not great but you will need to set the timing properly with a timing light - 2000-2500 RPM 4-8 deg BTDC, there is another timing mark on the flywheel at 6 deg BTDC if you have not had a replacement flywheel fitted. There should also be a mark on the distributor housing below the cover cap cutout, although you may find there are several marks on the distributor housing. Figure 10.JPG[/attachment:3ombw9pb]

 

Finally the real bone of contention here, the camshaft pulley positioning. As I had the cam cover off to change the seal I had a good fiddle with this to double check it. First of all the mark on the cam cover side of the pulley is only accurate if you fit the cam cover seal, if you look at figure 3 you can see that the dot on the camshaft pulley is inline with the top of the cylinder head.stromlaufplan_gamma4.pdfFigure 3.JPG[/attachment:3ombw9pb]

However, if you then go to fit the cambelt it will not engage with the teeth on the camshaft pulley. So I then double checked the camshaft pulley position using the other method. There are 2 dots on the camshaft pulley looking at it from the airbox side, these are intended to sit either side of a mark on the rocker cover but the workshop manual is not very clear (Figure 4).ETKA Corrado.pdfFigure 4.jpg[/attachment:3ombw9pb]

With the rocker cover off and cleaned up it is quite obvious which point the manual is referring to (Figures 5 and 6).stromlaufplan_gamma4.pdfFigure 5.JPG[/attachment:3ombw9pb]Corrado92.pdfFigure 6.JPG[/attachment:3ombw9pb] I then refitted the cam cover and checked to see if the marks aligned - they dont.

 

So from some deductive work I reasoned that with the cam cover seal fitted the mark on the cam cover side of the pulley is in the correct alignment (Figure 7), if you refer to the workshop manual it does not clearly show if the seal is fitted or not.passat climatronic wiring diags.pdfFigure 7.JPG[/attachment:3ombw9pb]

My reasoning behind this being correct is two fold, 1st of all I know that the flywheel mark I used to set the crank to is very accurate, 2nd the 'other' set of markings on the cam pulley align properly. To check the accuracy of the camshaft pulley I inserted a small screwdriver between the cam teeth and looked to see where it located on the refitted cam cover (Figures 8 and 9).

climatronic wiring-Golf from May 01.pdfFigure 8.JPG[/attachment:3ombw9pb]2.8l 24v Climatronic system.pdfFigure 9.JPG[/attachment:3ombw9pb]

 

To finish make sure you give the engine 1 or 2 full rotations by hand and then set the 0 deg mark using the flywheel marking, then re-check the camshaft pulley alignment is still ok. I know mine does not meet up perfectly at the camshaft pulley end but it is not a whole tooth out as that required too much adjustment at the flywheel end to ensure correct belt tension. The car does run well not it is not 180 degrees out - another reason to use the flywheel markings!

[Supercharged 2]

Yan, sorry - didn't see this thread...

 

Good to see the inside of your engine is the same colour as mine - so strange and never seen another VW like it apart from G60's

 

How much backlash should there be on the intermediate shaft? - I noticed on mine if I 'wriggle' the rotor arm the pulley moves in and out by about half a mm moving the cambelt with it!

 

Also what about the line on the dizzy casing - should the rotor arm point directly at this at TDC or is this a 6 degree marking?

[dirtytorque 0]

My dizzy has never been moved from the factory.

It still had the tamper proof cover on the 13mm nut up untiol recently.

 

When I set the Intermediate pulley up so that the dizzy pointed to the tdc mark it ran horribly.

real sluggish.Must have been retarded.

I then set it up using all the reference marks a la bentley.

This put the rotor arm a few degrees prior to the tdc mark on the dizzy.

The engine ran normally after I did this.

[Yandards 0]

My dizzy has never been moved from the factory.

It still had the tamper proof cover on the 13mm nut up untiol recently.

 

When I set the Intermediate pulley up so that the dizzy pointed to the tdc mark it ran horribly.

real sluggish.Must have been retarded.

I then set it up using all the reference marks a la bentley.

This put the rotor arm a few degrees prior to the tdc mark on the dizzy.

The engine ran normally after I did this.

 

The dizzy mark is only there as a rough set-up guide, you really need to time the engine dynamically at 2000-2500rpm and 6 deg BTDC to get it set properly. I'll put some money that the cambelt has been done in the past though and if this is a tooth out on the intermediate shaft then it will mess up the timing.

[Riley 0]

Nice one mate :)

 

I put my cam back a tooth yesterday as per the above.

 

Still got the problem like... :( and drives pretty much the same :?

 

Neil.

[Kick Up The Rs 0]

This is interesting.

 

I installed my Shrick cam courtesy of G-werks last night.

 

As my cam belt is only a few hundred miles old, I thought it would be a good idea just to slacken the tensioner and lift the belt off whist swapping the cam (marking the relevant position on the belt and pulleys beforehand).

 

So before removing the belt, I rotated the engine to tdc on the flywheel I inserted a screwdriver in the pulley between the two timing dots on the outside of the pully and it did not line up with the lip on right hand side of the cam cover (the screwdriver went into the cavity in the head just beneath the cam cover).

 

It was one tooth out.

 

I have timed it correctly with the new cam but have yet to fire her up as I need to put it all back together.

 

The question is, what would the long term effects of running a tooth out on the PG engine?

[Supercharged 2]

You won't have done any damage running a tooth out on the cam, lucky it wasn't a 16V tho!

[Kick Up The Rs 0]

Thanks,

 

Well,

 

I've just spoken to Darren and my original cam alignment was correct.

 

The lip on the outer cover is a bit misleading.

 

Correct timing is when a straight edge is placed along the top of the head (no gasket in place) lining up with the inner single dot on the pulley.

 

So, I'll be moving mine back a tooth before I start the engine...

[dirtytorque 0]

r u hapy that the intermediate pulley didn't move when you slackended and then re attached the belt ?

Did u make a note of the position of the dizzy rotar?

That would be my only concern doing it this way.

 

ta.

[Yandards 0]

Thanks,

 

Well,

 

I've just spoken to Darren and my original cam alignment was correct.

 

The lip on the outer cover is a bit misleading.

 

Correct timing is when a straight edge is placed along the top of the head (no gasket in place) lining up with the inner single dot on the pulley.

 

So, I'll be moving mine back a tooth before I start the engine...

 

With the flywheel set to 0 degrees by using the gearbox end did you find that the camshaft pulley aligns correct or that is half a tooth out?

[Kick Up The Rs 0]

Thanks,

 

Well,

 

I've just spoken to Darren and my original cam alignment was correct.

 

The lip on the outer cover is a bit misleading.

 

Correct timing is when a straight edge is placed along the top of the head (no gasket in place) lining up with the inner single dot on the pulley.

 

So, I'll be moving mine back a tooth before I start the engine...

 

With the flywheel set to 0 degrees by using the gearbox end did you find that the camshaft pulley aligns correct or that is half a tooth out?

Yanards,

 

Well its a strange one, I checked last night with my cam belt one tooth corrected to what it came off and the dot 'almost' lines up with top of the head (about 2mm out).

 

Fitted the belt as it was before I swapped the cam and the inner dot is 'miles off'

 

 

So I can conlude, the belt was one tooth out, but now is correct and 'almost' lines up with the top of the head.

 

r u hapy that the intermediate pulley didn't move when you slackended and then re attached the belt ?

Did u make a note of the position of the dizzy rotar?

That would be my only concern doing it this way.

 

ta.

 

The cap is off and the rotor arm sits about 4 deg clockwise of the notch with the flywheel at tdc so i assume all is correct...

[Yandards 0]

Thats my point really, I spent a considerable amount of time looking at this when I took these pictures I have been working in engineering for over 10 years now so am quite experienced when it comes to looking at set-ups of various items.

 

If you set the flywheel to 0 deg TDC and try to fit the cambelt I could not get the single dot to align as shown in the VAG manual with the top of the cylinder head. But what did work really nicely and makes a lot of sense is that the dot aligns really well with the rocker gasket still fitted - the book says that the cylinder head cover must be removed but not the gasket.

 

Right to just to really clarify this after I had another flick through the VAG PG engine mechanical workshop manual I found another picture of the belt timing setup - it clearly shows that the 2 dots sit either side of the 'ridge' on the rocker cover, as this rocker cover is unique to the G60 and why would VW add a precise looking notch to the side of an already expensive casting?

 

So much as this may be a bit of a shocker Darren is wrong, it may well be better from a performance perspective to run the engine with it advanced one tooth on the camshaft (all the engine work G-werks do is certainly putting out plenty of performance!) but the factory setting is the 2 dots either side of the ridge on the rocker cover. Please see attached picture that clearly points to the ridge on the rocker cover, so I stand by my original article.

[Riley 0]

Last time i set my timing i used the above method that Yanards mentions...Aligning the single dot on the rear of cam sprocket inline with the top of the rocker gasket...Or the two front dots inline with the wedge of the rocker cover, i can't say it ran very differently on the road (seems strange to me) but i recently rolling roaded it at 203 brake horse if that means anything?

 

Graph here

People seemed to think the curve was really good, so maybe the above setting method is correct. :)

 

And kick up't tharse, it sounds like your ignition timing is too retarded? Rotor should point a little before the notch in the dizzy body.

 

Neil.

[Yandards 0]

Last time i set my timing i used the above method that Yanards mentions...Aligning the single dot on the rear of cam sprocket inline with the top of the rocker gasket...Or the two front dots inline with the wedge of the rocker cover, i can't say it ran very differently on the road (seems strange to me) but i recently rolling roaded it at 203 brake horse if that means anything?

 

Graph here

People seemed to think the curve was really good, so maybe the above setting method is correct. :)

 

And kick up't tharse, it sounds like your ignition timing is too retarded? Rotor should point a little before the notch in the dizzy body.

 

Neil.

 

The only way to set the dizzy up is dynamically with a timing light, especially as the intermediate shaft has that nasty tendancy to spin when you fit the cambelt.

 

Figures are 2-2.5k and 5-7 deg BTDC or there should be a mark on the flywheel at 6 deg BTDC, the TDC one has a 0 above it that is barely visible.

 

Neil, it is the correct point to set it to according to VW, so as such it is the correct timing set up - you may get improved performance by setting it up slightly differently but I dont know if that is the case and am just speculating. From an engineering perspective this is the correct way to do this and the time I spent looking at variations on these marks just confirmed that my original piece at the top is the proper way to do this.

[W3RKD 0]

Yan.. put a DTI gauge on the cam lobe and the piston TDC and measure the dwell angle for both and double check this again.. We have had this come up so many times it was the only way i could confirm 100% which method was correct and i believe this is the correct way to set them up.

 

Darren

[Yandards 0]

Yan.. put a DTI gauge on the cam lobe and the piston TDC and measure the dwell angle for both and double check this again.. We have had this come up so many times it was the only way i could confirm 100% which method was correct and i believe this is the correct way to set them up.

 

Darren

 

Thanks for the info Darren, will get that done when I get back, just trying to get a definite answer up here with some pictures as this is one question that is continually asked and it still seems open to lots of interpretation. :?

 

Charger is pulling really well post rebuild so once again many thanks for the drop in :salute: :notworthy:

[dirtytorque 0]

When I changed mine the 1st time,I too spent alot of time on it.

I found that everything coincided with the bentley as explained by Yan.

The only confusing bit was the dizzy as people told me that the rotor should line up with the notch.

Mine didn't.I also think mine was as it came from the factory.My tamper proof cover was still on the dizzy bolt and the timing marks on the crank pulley,camshaft pulley and flywheel all aligned perfectly.

Also my cam tensioner was literally in bits along with the timing belt which makes me believe the car was as VW intended.

 

:hitler:

 

Now everytime I tamper with the setup I use a timing gun and my setup is non standard now anyway because of a vernier.

[Riley 0]

Last time i set my timing i used the above method that Yanards mentions...Aligning the single dot on the rear of cam sprocket inline with the top of the rocker gasket...Or the two front dots inline with the wedge of the rocker cover, i can't say it ran very differently on the road (seems strange to me) but i recently rolling roaded it at 203 brake horse if that means anything?

 

Graph here

People seemed to think the curve was really good, so maybe the above setting method is correct. :)

 

And kick up't tharse, it sounds like your ignition timing is too retarded? Rotor should point a little before the notch in the dizzy body.

 

Neil.

 

The only way to set the dizzy up is dynamically with a timing light, especially as the intermediate shaft has that nasty tendancy to spin when you fit the cambelt.

 

Figures are 2-2.5k and 5-7 deg BTDC or there should be a mark on the flywheel at 6 deg BTDC, the TDC one has a 0 above it that is barely visible.

 

Oh aye...i realise this Yan, 8) I know the notch is only used during static timing for a rough set up.But once set with a timing light the rotor would normally sit slightly before the notch as far as i know? Mine does and my ign timing is bang on 6deg btdc @ 2250rpm. :)

 

Neil.

[Kick Up The Rs 0]

This is really interesting as I can now recall that when my local indy did my cam belt i noticed that my dynamic timing was miles out and i had to re-adjust the timing... :confused4:

 

Also, since the cambelt was changed I've been suffering from what I thought was little end knocking with the engine warm - not pinking though.

 

Anyway, since shifting the cam belt by one notch the noise hase completely disappeard.

 

Incidently the Shrick cam is bloody marvelous and I have a dynamic advance of 7 deg which really livens things up!

 

A very good thread too...

[dirtytorque 0]

This is really interesting as I can now recall that when my local indy did my cam belt i noticed that my dynamic timing was miles out and i had to re-adjust the timing... :confused4:

 

Also, since the cambelt was changed I've been suffering from what I thought was little end knocking with the engine warm - not pinking though.

 

Anyway, since shifting the cam belt by one notch the noise hase completely disappeard.

 

Incidently the Shrick cam is bloody marvelous and I have a dynamic advance of 7 deg which really livens things up!

 

A very good thread too...

 

Schrick is very good value for money I think.

After the smaller pulley it has been the best mechanical power adder for the car.

What do you mean by dynamic advance of 7 deg??

Do you mean your ignition timing?

was that measured at idle or 2.5 rpm?

 

ta.

Sorry to muddy your thread Yan. :nuts:

[Kick Up The Rs 0]

Sorry,

 

Yes ignition advance at 2k RPM, blue temp sender disconnected.

 

And the good thing is the engine bay looks totally stock...

[Yandards 0]

Last time i set my timing i used the above method that Yanards mentions...Aligning the single dot on the rear of cam sprocket inline with the top of the rocker gasket...Or the two front dots inline with the wedge of the rocker cover, i can't say it ran very differently on the road (seems strange to me) but i recently rolling roaded it at 203 brake horse if that means anything?

 

Graph here

People seemed to think the curve was really good, so maybe the above setting method is correct. :)

 

And kick up't tharse, it sounds like your ignition timing is too retarded? Rotor should point a little before the notch in the dizzy body.

 

Neil.

 

The only way to set the dizzy up is dynamically with a timing light, especially as the intermediate shaft has that nasty tendancy to spin when you fit the cambelt.

 

Figures are 2-2.5k and 5-7 deg BTDC or there should be a mark on the flywheel at 6 deg BTDC, the TDC one has a 0 above it that is barely visible.

 

Oh aye...i realise this Yan, 8) I know the notch is only used during static timing for a rough set up.But once set with a timing light the rotor would normally sit slightly before the notch as far as i know? Mine does and my ign timing is bang on 6deg btdc @ 2250rpm. :)

 

Neil.

 

Yes it would, as long as the intermediate shaft pulley is in exactly the correct place when the cambelt it fitted.

[bigred 0]

if you are unsure do what we do on some thing like a subaru, time it up, tipex the pully tooth and go straight on to the belt, do this on all pullies, get the new belt do the first mark then count the teeth to the next one, put belt back and check timing, the japs do this as standard on some cars

[steveo29 0]

anyone else got an opinion on this?

 

i must admit the rocker cover molded on pointer and the 2 dot method looks just like what the manual suggests

 

i cant see they would mark it all up to use a rubber gasket as a guide?

 

might have a fiddle with mine in the AM as its still a bit strange

[Riley 0]

Im sticking with the method of leaving the rocker cover and gasket in place, and aligning the two dots on the front of the cam pully with the notch on the rocker cover.

 

Whats confusing to me is the picture makes it look as though the rocker is removed...and the notch pictured is below the edge of the head. :bad-words:

Also i can't stand the method for aligning the inter shaft pully, what an utter sh|t idea.As you turn the pully, it can still be seen as or look like its aligned, but how the hell would you ever know for sure when there is no horizontal maker point.

 

May have a mess with mine again tommorow too, fecking thing is getting on my nerves.

And why can't i quote attatchments?