toyotec 0 Posted February 4, 2011 Nice one Jim, glad it solved the problem! I was reading up on Motronic last night and it has load and RPM variable dwell on the coils, i.e. variable spark strength. I think putting your foot down in 5th at low rpm kicks in a stronger spark. Your coilpack was clearly on the ragged edge and could only sustain a weaker spark. Anyway, here's what we were discussing with Vince mate about the Ford EDIS coilpack - http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4223032 FourSeasons tuning sell ready converted Fordwagen leads for the job! http://fourseasontuning.com/?product=834 Kev, The humidity of recent may be causing the plug leads and or the metal fitment over the spark plug to arc to ground causing the misfire as experienced by members. I have had this twice after my vehicle was parked over a weekend, when it was very wet. Yes in the M3.8.1 and 2.9.1 software, there is a Kenn Feld for Coil dwell time, but I would imagine that this is the last place to optimise as the problem is really mechanical. Perhaps a change of coil pack to different chracteristics may warrent such a cal change to dwell time, but you will have to take into account the rating of the coil pack drivers if this change will be effective. My coil packs are on 150K miles, but I do keep and eye for issue like these as they will only cause more expensive issues if not quickly rectified. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted February 4, 2011 We did check for arcing but couldn't see anything. It was only happening over a very narrow rev band. Maybe the act of removing the HT leads and putting them back on again sorted it! They are Agreed on the coilpacks lasting. You read about the Americans getting through coilpacks all the time but I have no idea what they're doing to theirs!. They either cover intergalatic mileages or they just get inferior ones compared to ours? What's the maximum dwell Motronic can ramp the coils up to? 3ms? I use a Bosch coilpack on mine, from the Saab / Vectra V6 with battery compensated dwell. More KV than the standard Beru coils and it runs noticably better for it. I'm going to try a 42KV EDIS pack next with 1mm plug gaps :D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim 1 Posted February 4, 2011 Interestingly... after a few days of being fine, I'm noticing again a very occasional slight misfire when cold and when accelerating through the same revs. Far less severe than before and only happens for the first minute or so of driving. I'm wondering if it is the leads after all and, as you say Kev, whether removing and putting them back on was actually what seemed to cure the problem rather than the coil pack? Will see how it develops. Tempted to order a set of dubpower leads in the meantime as they're good and cheap! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diesel Junior 0 Posted February 4, 2011 This is bit of a saga this one!! As per the coil pack this is NOT a wind up but i know of two people over here (one with a Corrado, other with a Passat) whom when faced with the same problem as others on this board, instead of hitting the epoxy resin they sprayed hair spray (yes really) over the coil pack and guess what???? End of problems!! The one with the Corrado was done over 3 years ago.............. :cuckoo: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted February 4, 2011 Nice one /\ :D Jim, just drive the car mate. Get some proper miles and heat into it and don't ginger foot it. I bet the plugs are fouled up from too many short journeys! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diesel Junior 0 Posted February 4, 2011 Kev i saw them do it (on the Passat), this is no wind up!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ANDREW 30 0 Posted February 4, 2011 We did check for arcing but couldn't see anything. It was only happening over a very narrow rev band. Maybe the act of removing the HT leads and putting them back on again sorted it! They are Agreed on the coilpacks lasting. You read about the Americans getting through coilpacks all the time but I have no idea what they're doing to theirs!. They either cover intergalatic mileages or they just get inferior ones compared to ours? What's the maximum dwell Motronic can ramp the coils up to? 3ms? I use a Bosch coilpack on mine, from the Saab / Vectra V6 with battery compensated dwell. More KV than the standard Beru coils and it runs noticably better for it. I'm going to try a 42KV EDIS pack next with 1mm plug gaps :D Have you got any links for where to buy the coil pack your currently using and what other bits I need to get. To get it up and working on my VR as mine has just started to run a bit lumpy/misfire too! Is it quite straight forward to fit? Cheers Andrew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted February 4, 2011 Yes very easy mate. Give the link I put up on the first page a look, with reference to the Ford EDIS coilpack. Full instructions and part no's etc are all within. They are only £50!!! My bosch one is £100. The Ford pack has a massive spark, which might help with some running problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dr_mat 0 Posted February 4, 2011 Aye, this one - http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/comp ... ls/3x2.pdf It's from the GM 2.5 V6, as fitted to Vauxhalls and Saabs. Cavalier, Calibra, Omega, Vectra, Saab V6 of that vintage (1995 - 2000 IIRC) etc etc, so plenty of breakers to try. You don't have to prove it's better if it's cheaper and works .. :) Interesting fact. This passed me by earlier on, think I'll file that one somewhere .. ! :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toyotec 0 Posted February 4, 2011 We did check for arcing but couldn't see anything. It was only happening over a very narrow rev band. Maybe the act of removing the HT leads and putting them back on again sorted it! They are Agreed on the coilpacks lasting. You read about the Americans getting through coilpacks all the time but I have no idea what they're doing to theirs!. They either cover intergalatic mileages or they just get inferior ones compared to ours? What's the maximum dwell Motronic can ramp the coils up to? 3ms? I use a Bosch coilpack on mine, from the Saab / Vectra V6 with battery compensated dwell. More KV than the standard Beru coils and it runs noticably better for it. I'm going to try a 42KV EDIS pack next with 1mm plug gaps :D Same here. My leads are less than a year old but the vehicle developed a misfire at idle while warming up after a soak. It was a very wet day and the car had been parked for 3 days. Closer inspection displayed arcing at the coil pack, suggesting a build up of resistance between spark plug and lead. Removing the leads and plug at cylinder 4 cured the issue after passing a dry cloth on the offenders. If I have ignored and driven, a path would have burned to earth and there would be permanent damage to coil pack or driver. Perhaps as the car has taken a few hits like this, the damage may have already started but we will see. I would imagine the values in the calibrated tables are the match for IGBT amplifier and thus the coil pack's forward voltage as well as flashback. There is a lot of effort that goes into populating a table like that and it would not be recommend to tweak. Not for NASP engines anyway and once with definite hardware issues are described. For standalone's I would tend to use the same infomation seen in the bosch settings to set dwell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted February 4, 2011 Same here. My leads are less than a year old but the vehicle developed a misfire at idle while warming up after a soak. It was a very wet day and the car had been parked for 3 days. Closer inspection displayed arcing at the coil pack, suggesting a build up of resistance between spark plug and lead. Removing the leads and plug at cylinder 4 cured the issue after passing a dry cloth on the offenders. If I have ignored and driven, a path would have burned to earth and there would be permanent damage to coil pack or driver. Perhaps as the car has taken a few hits like this, the damage may have already started but we will see. I would imagine the values in the calibrated tables are the match for IGBT amplifier and thus the coil pack's forward voltage as well as flashback. There is a lot of effort that goes into populating a table like that and it would not be recommend to tweak. Not for NASP engines anyway and once with definite hardware issues are described. For standalone's I would tend to use the same infomation seen in the bosch settings to set dwell. Interesting. I use a silicon dielectric grease on my HT leads and I haven't had any voltage leaks for years. Mind you, I do drive it every day, so it doesn't really get time to sit around and get damp. I'm pretty sure the Bosch sets a maximum dwell of ~ 3.5ms. 3ms seems to be a common charge time for many coils. 4ms charge time starts to make the amplifier run hot, so VW will have set their dwell to the most efficient dishcharge time for the Beru coils. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daves16v 1 Posted February 4, 2011 Yes very easy mate. Give the link I put up on the first page a look, with reference to the Ford EDIS coilpack. Full instructions and part no's etc are all within. They are only £50!!! My bosch one is £100. The Ford pack has a massive spark, which might help with some running problems. Kev, is the Bosch pack a straight swap for the original as in same mounting points/dims and same connector? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ben-B 0 Posted February 4, 2011 Sorry to hijack the thread but mine runs like this too... VERY rough up to around 2000 rpm (if you floor it at say 1500 rpm then it lurches and chugs), but above 3000rpm it seems to be fine. Seems very down on power though. Also, it doesn't make a difference what the oil temp is, does it at the start middle and end of long and short journeys. It won't be the coilpack though, cos mine's a dizzy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toyotec 0 Posted February 4, 2011 If it suffers from the occasional juddd....dddd....ddder at low revs, this could be a plug lead or spark plug. This assuning all other things that can shut a cylinder down are fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daves16v 1 Posted February 5, 2011 I've had some light/off throttle problems for a while so I'm gonna give this Ford coil a go. Anyone know if the Mondeo/Cougar 2.5 V6 coil will work, it physically looks the same? Have already changed the plugs and leads last year. Edit - just checked the Vortex thread a little better and it appears someone has used the Mondeo/Cougar coilpack without any problems - Page 9 at the bottom, part number matches too - F5SU-12029-AA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted February 8, 2011 Thanks Dave, let us know how much the pack is from Ford! As an alternative, I rather fancy trying this 45,000 Volt version - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DUI-31738/ Summit Racing are brilliant, fast shipping. If a bunch of us are considering swapping coils, might be worthwhile sharing the shipping cost / excise duty? Depends how much the Ford one is. Don't use a pattern coilpack, they are sheet. Was talking to Vince about these coils and he said Ford Zetecs run 1.1mm plug gaps and a huge spark to get round a burn issue at low rpms. For comparison, the VR6 runs 0.7mm gaps and ~ 25,000V coils. The bosch coil I use is ~ 35,000V. I'm not suggesting uber coils is the answer. It was certainly a band aid fix for Ford, but on an otherwise healthy VR6 and modified / boosted, there is a strong case for uprated coils / bigger plug gaps. And yes Dave, the Bosch coil's bolt spacing is exactly the same as the stock one, you just need to modify the ally cradle slightly. I will try and do a write up but it's the same process as the Ford pack electrically, i.e. spades to a 4 pin plug. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pat_McCrotch 0 Posted February 8, 2011 Leads were brand new VAG items as well Jim. Doubt they'd be fooked after less than two years :) My current VR had done 3000 miles in 5 years and felt horrible. 1200 miles of long distance hard driving and it feels 100X better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daves16v 1 Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Kev, what about the leads for the Bosch pack? Do they require different ends or will the std VR leads fit? Just trying to decide what will be cheaper/better kit - Ford Pack & non standard leads v Bosch Pack & std VR leads. Edit - OT, Kev can't seem to find details you posted about aux pump replacement with R32 item, need to replace as it's leaking bit quicker, Ta. Edited February 8, 2011 by daves16v Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Bacon 5 Posted February 9, 2011 Standard leads can be used with the Bosch pack Dave. R32 water pump, you just need that and the plug / pins. VW sell those too. The plug shell is called a "Housing" on their system, but it's just a common bosch connector, e.g. - http://www.simtekuk.co.uk/www.simtekuk.co.uk/info.php?p=12&pno=0&pid=2206294&cat=129970&ack=9&search=&sought= I've got loads of plugs from new and old VAGs, so if you struggle to get one, PM me and I'll stick one in the post to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roan 0 Posted February 23, 2011 Think I've found a cheap price for the Bosch coil: http://www.vauxhallworldparts.com/vauxhall.php?partnumber=0221503002 Is this a straight plug & play to the OE amplifier and 4-pin connector? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roan 0 Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) Any chance of a brief "how to" for the bosch coil pack Kev? Edited March 19, 2011 by Roan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
