Any structural engineers/surveyors on the forum? I need some advice!

[eugopnosaj 0]

Hi all, as the title states i need a bit of advice. My girlfriend and i are in the process of buying a house and we've hit a huge road block. Theres been a few issues with the sellers as in they havent been truthful with everything and not providing the relevant paperwork for the house.

 

The history of the house is that when they moved in 8 years ago they had a full structural survey done which highlighted quite a few issues; they in turn 'rectified' these:

 

- New double glazing throughout with new UPVC soffets, fascia boards and drainage (however there is an issue, see below)

- New roof tiling including installing a Velux roof light

- New electrics throughout

- New plumbing and boiler throughout as there was no central heating

- Cracking to brickwork to external walls: assumed corrected but unsure.

 

Now there was a big issue that was picked up and this caused a huge hold up with getting the mortgage approved. There has been some historical movement which was apparently caused by the bay windows at the front of the house, the house was built in 1950 and is, I guess, understandable. We had a standard survey done thinking that because they had a full one a few years ago there shouldn't be any major issues. When the survey came back it raised this issue again and said that it was down to the windows (as you will read further down). Eventually they sent over the paperwork and they assumed it was all ok.

 

Issue 1:

 

They had some electrical work carried out by a 'family friend' and they put down on the sellers document that it was done in 2008. We asked for some paperwork to show this and that it had been certified/met the requirements and they said they didn't have any. They then changed their story and said it was done in 2004. Again we asked for paperwork, nothing. Eventually, after lots of shouting they gave us something saying that since it was done before 2005 it didn't need to meet the same legislation as the 2011/2012 certification, and if we wanted to get it up to current standards all we needed to do was replace/install some RCDs. Fine, at least we've got this now, my dad is certified and can do the work.

 

Issue 2:

 

There was a new boiler supposidly fitted in 2008 along with new plumbing throughout and a service in 2011. Great, can we have paperwork to prove this? No. Ok, so we said before we move in can you at least get it serviced for us? No, it had one last year. Right...so paperwork to prove this? Oh, we've lost it...Bearing in mind that when my girlfriend's parents moved into their new house some years ago the boiler packed in after three months and they had to buy a new one.

 

If its been serviced last year thats fine, as long as we have paperwork to prove this and the age of the boiler but they won't give us anything. We eventually got some cock'n'bull story about having an engineer in to do some work to the flue but they didn't keep the reciept.

 

We believe that they had another 'family friend' to do some work and perhaps they aren't gas safe.

 

Issue 3: The big one

 

The survey states:

 

'The windows have been replaced with UPVC double glazed units. The windows operated satisfactorily. There is however substantial cracking at first floor level either side of the replacement bay windows. Both the ground floor and first floor bay windows wall have some structural requirements involving the bearing of the loads above. Accordingly these windows should have been reinforced to accommodate the loads imposed/ Having regard to the cracking when it occurred and the age of these windows, I am concerned that they may not be reinforced. If they are not reinforced, i see no alternative but to have them replaced.'

 

The report was dated 20th May 2004 and the documents for the windows is 6th Sept 2004 however we have nothing to prove that the repairs were done to the walls and the lintel and that the walls are safe.

 

Our standard survey also said the following:

 

'There is evidence of historic movement and distortion in the main walls. It is suspected that wall cavity tie failure has previously occurred.'

 

We have requested whether the above work has been carried out, both to remedy the issue with the walls around the window and the cavity ties and the seller hasn't been forthcoming regarding any of it.

 

 

Now all of this has been having in the 2 weeks that we are on holiday, we've still been in the country, 1 week of that in the Lake District and the past week we've been in a field, in Reading, enjoying the Festival. Whilst being threatened that if we don't complete they will put the house back on to the market. Now we phoned the estate agents and they didn't have a clue about this and the house isn't going back onto the market.

 

The sellers don't need to move as their purchase fell through based on the fact that they wanted some work done and the seller refused, now they're doing the exact same thing to us but all we want is some paperwork.

 

Katie's parents have offered to pay for a boiler service but they shouldn't have to, and my family has offered to put up some money towards a full structural survey but again, they shouldn't need to and katie's mum doesn't even think the survey will give us the information that we need.

 

What i really need is your thoughts on this and whether any of you have any advice? We're putting all our money into this and don't want to have to try and find more to fix the problems.

 

You wouldn't buy a car without an MOT (unless it was cheap and you knew what needed doing)...

[VAG-hag 0]

if there is any doubt there is no doubt mate.....walk away. yes its crap to thrown money into a move but it sounds like the begining of a homes from hell story!!

[joby 0]

BIN IT, The way things are with the market at the moment any seller should be trying to rectify the issues you have, They sound like proper bell ends so i would pull out of the deal, The window company should know that any bay window is structural so should conform to bs! You say tie wire failure so i assume this is on a gable wall, if so can be expensive job! As with cars jason theres loads out there at the moment so dont rush in to a money pit, Good luck mate

[anne t 10]

sounds to me that the sellers are trying to push you into buying the property and with no certification on any of any kind

i would walk away,after all it is a buyers market??

[daleyboy 0]

.....and you wouldn't buy a car without having someone look at it who knew what they were doing.

 

I would walk away but thats easy for me to say, the only alternative is to have a structural survey done yourself, then at least any decision would be informed rather than not. The sellers do sound like they are trying to pull a fast one, out of principle i would look elsewhere, if i walk into a shop and i dont like what they say i go to another one.

[captainredeye 0]

Quite often you won't get a mortgage on a property with major issues, if a house is sold and not all relevant details are made clear ie. Facts are hidden, then you are covered for this I would speak to your soliciter.

Really though i would walk a way, I have had a few heart breaks with properties but the right one will come along

[Portent 0]

All the issues are rectifiable. The electrical and boiler work is likely fairly small. But the structural issues around the window are concerning unless they have been remediated. They may also affect your mortgage and future buildings insurance. If the sellers cannotprove that the work has been done then I would personally either walk way or get a quote to fix it and then reduce my offer accordingly.

 

Don't be rushed into a decision. Buyers are thin in the ground and if you did lose the property then it migh just be a good thing.

[eugopnosaj 0]

Thanks for your replies guys.

 

The electrical work and the boiler aren't too much of an issue (well, if the boiler isn't gas safe certified it might be an issue) but yeah, the window and wall cavity ties are a concern. We were planning on walking away but it was pointed out to me that we'd be forever wondering as this is the second house that we might end up walking away from, granted we never got past the offer stage with the other one and we've already paid all our fees. There are a few companies out there that will do wall cavity tie surveys such as rentokil or you can do it yourself with a kit. I haven't got quotes for the survey or how much to do the work so these are an unknown but searching forums gave prices for a 3 bed semi between £1200 - £1500+

 

Our mortgage company is charging £680 for a full structural survey, the original survey done in 2004 didn't do boiler checks and it wouldn't check wall cavity ties, and I'm not sure whether our mortgage company one would either, but we can find an alternative surveyor however if it doesn't come back with anything we've got 2 choices, walk away or get a wall cavity survey. The unfortunate thing is we need either a full survey or even to get a structural engineer in to tell us whether the walls around the windows are safe, and a wall cavity survey to tell us about the conditions of the ties.

 

Costs:

 

Full structural survey: £600 - £700 +

Wall cavity survey: £unknown

If we walk away we would lose around £1k for solicitor fees

 

Obviously its a pain but losing £1k on fees and walking away without all the issues is better than having to cover all the costs however it could come back ok...or am i just being optimistic? The only other thing we could do is try and get money off the cost of the house once we know what the outcome is...your thoughts?

[Wild-Animal 0]

Did this sort of thing not get picked up on the home report? As its an independent survey.

 

It does sounds like you should walk away, its easy to get tunnel vision on a single property. If they are lying about these things then what else are they lying about.

[Rams 0]

With regards to the windows, can you see bending or bowing on the frames or units/window gaskets? You can normally tell looking at the windows and if operational I generally see no issue.

 

You can contact Gas Safe yourself or via me if you have the boiler manual where it should have completed on the inside page usually all the details relating to that boiler and the installers details. For any new boiler fitted, you have to be gas safe which you know but it costs the installer a couple of pounds to register which in turn correlates with the boiler warranty as often boiler warranty repairs can be declined if not registered with gas safe.

 

I would recommend the owner having an independent gas safety inspection, the same inspection a landlord has to have done once a year. My company do them for management agents and letting agents etc, usually about £40 to £50 plus VAT.

That way, boiler flue and emissions / burner pressures and tightness test etc are checked. Any advice is given at the bottom. Usually NTC, not to current standards or fail or it's been condemned. It's not a bullet proof way to check the boiler out completely as a service does more along those lines but if it goes through a gas safety ok then it's safe.

 

I think sometimes surveyors get it wrong, I've delt with many cases where they have made recommendations and I've had to prove otherwise with supporting evidence. A building with internal cracking, light cracking to plaster, they said the wall ties were corroding and were the cause.

 

I made an inspection hole to reveal galvanised wall ties in perfect order.

 

Take a decent trusted builder, if your dads a spark, then between you it won't be hard to find.

Insist the boiler is given a landlord gas safety inspection.

Tap/knock the window frames and see if they sound reinforced.

If building is moving, is this internal or external cracking? Near any drainage?

Have the Glass window units blown internally, I.e condensation between panes.

 

You can also contact Fensa to see if the window installers were registered.

 

Option B, negotiate or set up an indemnity insurance policy to cover any eventualities if your worried the deal will fall apart. Then the vender knows you want to complete quickly.

 

Also, if you can, fire the boiler up and have a listen. Does it sound like an old tired kettle or a smooth modern combi boiler? Also, try bleeding a rad with a small bleed key and see what colour the water is to determine how much crap is in the system.

[tonytiger 0]

Getting a full structural survey won't necessarily help as such, as the engineer/surveryor will likely err on the side of caution to avoid being sued at a later date.

 

Is there any sign of cracking 'round the windows now?

 

When my sister bought her current house a few years ago, there were some potential issues with it - as there was visible cracking/movement internally - but it looked historic so didn't expect it to be a problem, but of course mortgage survey made a big deal out of it. My parents paid for further survey to be done, but made no difference as they wouldn't commit to it being historic and no longer a problem.

 

In the end, a claim was put in with the sellers insurance for subsidence as part of the sale/mortage agreement - and the house was monitored for movement for 6 months and, as expected, there wasn't any, so that was that sorted.

 

The boiler problem isn't the end of the world - as long as you get it serviced (and get any other gas work/appliances checked) then at worst it will break down. Obviously you'd have the expense of replacing it, but if you budget for that now as a possibility perhaps you could negotiate the price a little. Or, perhaps just sign up to one of those monthly schemes where you get an annual service in the price and breakdown/replacement cover.

 

At the end of the day, it comes down to how much you want that property, and how much hassle/effort you prepared to deal with to get it. What ever happens - good luck!

[daleyboy 0]

So he has cracking around the bay window of a house, and a survey wont help ? seriously ?

 

What the surveyor will put in his report and what he actually says to you on-site may be a bit different, so i would have a chat with him, either way he will have a much better idea than a lay person would, he would know the difference between historic and recent movement.

 

But to recommend to someone who is about to make the biggest purchase of their lives, that a survey wont help is in my view reckless.

[tonytiger 0]

Daleyboy, did you read my first sentence in full? You've even gone on to say yourself that what's in the written report might be different from what he thinks off the record, which is absolutely no help from a legal/mortgage/insurance point of view. I did not recommend Not to have a survey done, just that getting a surveyor to commit to saying it's historic movement without monitoring may be difficult even if they think it is, to avoid litigation further down the road.

[VR6Pete 0]

2 words.. Walk away :)

[Walesy 0]

As others have said, it depends on how much you want THAT property, if it's in the right location and ticks enough boxes on your list of requirements then it might be worth throwing caution into the wind and dealing with any problems that come up as they arise. I must admit I don't have surveys done on properties I buy, I let the mortgage company carry out their survey in which they list any problems they find, if there are any significant problems they won't lend you money on that property. Things like boilers going etc are just part and parcel of owning a house, I wouldn't let a couple of certificates get in the way of a large deal like a house purchase, in my view things like that are just fine details.

 

I can remember the mortgage survey on my home stating that the roof had 'reached the end of it's serviceable life' i.e it was f***ed, there are bits of duct tape holding tiles on in places, proper Cornish 'fixing'. 3 years on and it's still up there keeping the rain out! It's been there since 1926 so a few more years won't hurt! :lol:

 

I think it's easy to get panicked about things like cracks etc, In the past I've had builders come out and accompany me on second viewings to give me an idea of how much it'll cost to fix potential problems, maybe it'd be a good idea for you to do the same, just make sure you get someone reputable - they'll give you a real world idea of what's gone wrong, how to fix it, and how much it'll cost, rather than a surveyor who'll most likely have never laid a brick in his life.

 

Good luck! :)

[davidwort 0]

Based on my experience of buying houses and issues my family have had, if there's this much flagged up already then you've got to be pretty sure you want this property at this location.

Sounds like the current owners have had all sorts of illegal potentially dodgy work done, could cost thousands to rectify and then there's structural issues. you'll have a job ever claiming for susbsidence etc on future insurance if this has already been flagged!

Problem is, house buying is a very emotional thing, and it's easy to fall in love with a place and hard to be objective.

Getting permission for 'invasive' surveys to check wall ties etc., is going to be very costly and time consuming to arrange and complete, I've seen it done here at work on a 1970's building, which they ended up demolishing and rebuilding!

Having said all that, as some of the other's have said, it shouldn't cost much if anything to get a builder or two to give you a worst case scenario, then use that as a bargaining tool.

One thing's for sure, it demonstrates that home seller packs are a complete waste of time and money!

[daleyboy 0]

Daleyboy, did you read my first sentence in full? You've even gone on to say yourself that what's in the written report might be different from what he thinks off the record, which is absolutely no help from a legal/mortgage/insurance point of view. I did not recommend Not to have a survey done, just that getting a surveyor to commit to saying it's historic movement without monitoring may be difficult even if they think it is, to avoid litigation further down the road.

I did read it, what i meant was that they need to know one way or the other whether it is a problem or not, and you can only really get that from having it looked at from someone who knows what they are doing. You are right they will probably err on the side of caution, having re-read what i had written it did come accross a bit harsh, so i apologise to you for that.

[tonytiger 0]

daleyboy, no apology needed - all just part of the discussion :D

 

I've had the same experience as Walesy with regard to roof condition, both buying and selling. Generally, imo, a load of rubbish - if it's still there doing it's job, it'll probably keep doing it a good while longer - though obviously some people prefer peace of mind and have them replaced anyway. None of the houses I've sold or close family have sold, have had the roofs replaced by the new owners - even years later! Again, I think it's largely a case of surveyors not taking any chances whatsoever - and to some degree, I don't blame them - it's just not very helpful to the buyer or the seller.

 

I'd be more worried about the state of gas pipes/boilers/fires, and the electrical wiring. And just because you've got a certifcate to show it was done by a 'professional' doesn't guarantee it'll be okay (though obviously it would be most of the time).

Edited August 28, 2012 by tonytiger

[BILLCOR 1]

Walk away, even if you get the structural survey, who is gonna pay to rectify any problems found, not the sellers by the sounds of it, are they gonna drop their price to cover any repairs, if not, you still have the survey to pay for and the solicitors fees, I've bought 5 houses in the last 10 years and have walked away from many, there's always something else. Best of luck whatever you decide :thumbleft:

[davidwort 0]

...- if it's still there doing it's job, it'll probably keep doing it a good while longer -

if only the same could be said about corrados :)

[eugopnosaj 0]

Wild-Animal:

 

We only had a standard survey done as it was free and assumed (you should never assume) that any major issues had been picked up on the full structural survey that the sellers had when they moved in. We hadn’t seen the results of this before we had ours done and was only made aware when our survey came back with regards to the wall cavity ties.

 

Rams:

 

It’s a shame you’re not closer as I would take you with me! Unfortunately I don’t think they’d let us into the house to check the boiler and look at the manual ourselves. We have got documents from Fensa regarding the glazing fitters and although it doesn’t say whether they did any repairs to the walls we could contact them and see if they would have done anything, however it is 8 years old now. We tried insisting that a service was done on the boiler but they refused claiming it didn’t need one as one was done in 2011 which is fine but all we are after is paperwork proving this which we don’t have.

 

I haven’t looked at the windows personally since this whole thing reared its ugly head and the walls have an external render so if there is cracking who’s to say it hasn’t been rendered over? The windows aren’t blown and the movement is noted as historic and around the bay windows to the ground and first floor to the front of the house, which isn’t near any drainage.

 

The issue is whether the walls around the windows are structurally sound and whether movement regarding these walls has caused tie failure OR that tie failure has caused the movement, both of which we are trying to find out.

 

Daleyboy and Tonytiger:

 

The standard survey has mentioned historic movement and they suspect that it is down to wall cavity tie failure which is different to the original full survey but they both mention movement. I don’t believe that another full survey will indicate whether the work has been carried out to rectify this and except we would need an engineer to do a proper inspection to clarify this?

 

I think as a few of you have mentioned we should go around for a viewing ourselves with a couple of builders (to get different views) and get them to give us their thoughts and possible costs if anything did need doing and then perhaps approaching the sellers with an alternative offer.

 

The wiring is not an issue, and although my dad is no longer registered it wouldn’t take him long to get a Gas Safe certificate I guess its just the structural issues that are worrying me.

 

We both love the house and it has great potential but we’re putting everything in to it and don’t want to fall short and have to rectify lots of problems. If we knew from the start then our offer would have been different but with the sellers hassling and threatening we’re not sure what to do.

 

BILLCOR:

 

This is what we were thinking, who will pay the costs and if we get a survey and walk its more money down the drain but it could all be ok.

 

In terms of what survey should be done do you think it should be a full structural or get a builder in to survey the walls and do a wall cavity tie survey?

 

I really appreciate all your advice, although we haven’t reached a conclusion it is helping us see things from a different perspective. :)

[davidwort 0]

Seriously, this sounds worse and worse, replacement bay windows without correct support, wiring, heating, rendered walls which could be hiding anything and long term require maintenance that other walls just don't.

A seller that is threatening WTF?!

I wouldn't be happy without a full boroscope investigation of the cavities either.

It's really not stacking up well???

[eugopnosaj 0]

Haha, we've had a long ol' chat and the conclusion is that we're going to get a wall cavity survey done and a colleague at work has a few builder friends who can have a look at the walls around the windows to see if walls have been made good and go from there. Its the least we can do and probably the cheapest way of confirming the state of the property.

 

We called the sellers bluff whilst we were away and said if they wanted a sale they have to wait on us now to establish whether everything is safe and structurally sound, we haven't heard anything since Friday regarding it. Obviously yesterday was a bank holiday so couldn't do anything and today was my first day back at work after being off for 2 weeks so was really busy and will arrange things for tomorrow.

 

It does sound like it could be a house from hell but the boiler can be serviced (fingers crossed it has been certified) and with my father being a sparky he can certify and can help to correct any electrical issues. Now to watch this space...

 

Thanks all for your advice and thoughts. I'll keep this updated.

[Walesy 0]

Yeah I've gotta be honest, I think I agree with Davidwort and the others that are saying you might be better off walking away from this one, in your situation - unless the house really is exceptional (i.e it's ridiculously cheap, or it's in an amazing location and a once in a lifetime opportunity to buy there, etc etc) or you have either the skills or the cash to rectify any problems if/as and when they arise (which it seems like you don't) you could end up regretting it, and it's a big thing to regret!

 

I'm not a fan of 'new builds' - in fact if I'm honest I hate them! but if you're worried about being covered for every eventuality then they can be a safe bet with the NHBC guarantee, new windows/boilers etc etc. My first house was 6 years old when I bought it, completely devoid of any character and air tight and stuffy, but it did the job and was cheap as chips to maintain and heat etc etc. I think on the whole it's more difficult to sell an 'estate house' when the time comes and they're more susceptible to drops in the market, but they have their benefits especially for first time buyers.

 

It seems like you're pushing a pea up a hill, and as much as it's a nightmare having to throw £1k into the wind, sometimes when things aren't happening organically you've gotta take the hint cut your losses and move on, chalk it down to experience and try and knock an extra £1k off the next house you offer on to make up for it ;) If it was meant to be, etc etc.

 

Again, best of luck with whatever you decide, they say buying property is the most stressful thing you can do, and that's because of situations like this! wait 'till next time when you're in a chain, that's when the real fun begins! :lol:

[wazza 0]

If you do need some advice I'm a structural engineer... I can make some comments on the previous report if you like too

Cracking around bay windows is quite common, and can be caused by a differential settlement between the house foundations and the shallow footing to the bay window.

 

Afraid I have only skim read your post but get in touch if you need any advice.

 

Waz