Got the performance mods, but where is the performance?!

[Jimbob1970 0]

I picked up my 16v this morning, with a new TSR pack A head, and a 4 into 1 stainless manifold.

It is rubbish.

I have lost any pull I did have below 4,000 rpm and although I have not completely red-lined it yet, the top end doesn't really seem any better than it was before either.

 

It is now completely guttless below 4,500 rpm, it wasn't as bad as this with the standard head and manifold.

 

I deliberately kept the original cams to try and keep the maximum torque in the mid-range, so as not to make the engine even more 'peaky' than it already is.

I thought the new head and down-pipe would improve the mid-range, not kill it completely.

 

Any ideas anybody?

Does this sound like it's just badly set up?

The mechanic seems to know what he is doing, he had two other C's in there with mine.

He said he set timing up to standard settings. Should he have done something different?

 

:cry:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Tim Stiles - ex school teacher and Mini racer..... and wears a beard and cardigan........ says it all really :lol:

 

But in all seriousness, sounds pretty poor. I wonder if they set the igntion timing up properly or over-skimmed the head which has screwed up the cam timing? What level is Pack A anyway? Flowed? If it is then that could also be responsible for moving the torque curve. I used to have a 4 branch manifold on my 16V and it made a small, but noticable difference in the midrange. Did they lag it properly with thermal bandage?

[Jimbob1970 0]

Kevhaywire,

 

Yeah the Pack A is flowed and ported.

Dunno about lagging with thermal bandage? What does that do?

I haven't had a chance to look yet.

[h100vw 0]

Tim Stiles - ex school teacher and Mini racer..... and wears a beard and cardigan........ says it all really :lol:

 

Mr Stiles doesn't own TSR anymore he sold out a while back.

 

Has it been setup on the rollers? Did you see a print out? Are you expecting more than you have got? I would drive it for a couple of days then go back if you are still not happy.

 

The old CRX VTEC springs to my mind. The std one had 130bhp and 105lbs of torque, the VTEC gets 160 with 105lbs of torque. No difference in the drive really except you can rev the VTEC another 2000 revs.

 

How much extra were you looking for? More than 20-25hp would be wishful thinking IMHO. I have a fire extinguisher to hand :lol:

 

gavin

[Bally 0]

I havent heard very good things abt TSR, good at taking yr £££, bad at making yr car go any better :roll:

[GIXXERUK 0]

if your not happy with it , take it back mate , suprising how they remember they forgot to do something when you complain :)

[Jim 2]

Well, not going on the strength of my car. Admittedly brookescourt did spend a lot of money with them but all of the mods they executed on what is now my car appear to have been done to a very high standard, and without cutting any corners. Even Vince said at the last rolling road that my car was a good advert for TSR!

[Linus Van Pelt 0]

...at the risk of sounding like a broken record :oops: what other mods have you got on the car, or is the ported/flowed head and manifold the only stuff that's been done :?:

 

LvP.

[Jimbob1970 0]

LvP

 

I have the ported and flowed head, the manifold, a full Supersprint Exhaust system.

I don't have a K&N air filter, or any airbox mods at all.

Oh, and one of Gavin's headlight looms to fit when I have time to do it... asap!!

 

Gavin, I was expecting about 20-25 extra bhp with both mods. I did not think that it would push the power up the rev range, I thought I would have more lower down if it was breathing better than before.

That's why I didn't go for cams as well.

 

Just to clarify, TSR DID NOT DO THE WORK TO MY CAR, a local mechanic did it, I mail ordered the head and Manifold, he fitted them. He seems like a good guy though, has worked on C's and Mk2's for years, owned them himself etc etc.

[vr6storm 0]

might be speaking out of my arse here :oops: ..............but.............does the head not need to get a bit of "coking-up" to start get some noticable increases :wink: .........

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Nope...the less coke the better where heads are concerned.

 

16vs already flow too well, which gives it's lack of 'apparent' torque at low revs, but compare it to the 1800 NA 8V, the 16v has more torque throughout the range, it's just the burst of power at 4500rpm masks it.

 

What size inlet manifold do you have Jimbob? If it's the 50mm, try a 42mm, that will restore some of the missing midrange.

 

If they skimmed the head, then TSR should really have advised you to use a vernier cam wheel to restore the cam timing.

 

I'm sure it can be sorted, just needs a little more work.

 

RE the exhaust manifold, your 4 branch should be lagged with thermal bandage to stop it losing heat too quickly. Heat in the manifold pulls the exhaust gases out of the chambers and this is why iron is so much better in this respect as it doesn't lose heat so easily.

[Linus Van Pelt 0]

Jimbob1970,

 

I've only had the air in and the exhaust out tweaked thus far (cold air feed & K&N, ported exhaust manifold, custom downpipe, Milltek CAT and exhaust).

 

It's probably relative, but I lost some low range power and gained buckets and buckets of mid & especially top (I kept bouncing off the limiter for the first day or so as the engine just kept pulling rather than dying at 6K like it used too :lol: ). I seem to remember from the chat I had with JMR after the work he did, that better flow = better top end :?:

 

The only reason I'm mentioning all this is because at first, I could tell the car was very different but it was that much different in as far as driving it the way I used to meant I was actually going slower, the power bands had shifted that much - where I used to get maximum pull wasn't the case anymore. After some experimentation on my private test track to work in the morning, I found out where the power had shifted too (up the rev range basically), and it was only then I realised just how much better it actually was. I've had to adjust my gear change points and gear selection based on my speed, but the results are :mrgreen: inducing to say the least... and even more suprisingly (I thought) my MPG is up as well!

 

I will also add (in light of vr6storm's post) , that there was a definite run in period for me of about 1000 miles or so before I got the full effect...

 

Hope you can get things worked out soon,

 

LvP.

[vr6storm 0]

Nope...the less coke the better where heads are concerned.

 

.

 

 

ah but isn't some(as in not a lot) coke/carbon build up actually beneficial to the "flowing".....if you know what i mean :? :wink:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Nope....excess carbon absorbs atomised fuel, which causes pinking, among other things :wink:

 

Carbon build ups are good for the exhaust system as it quietens them down, but you certainly don't want too much of it in the combustion chambers. This is why cars peform so much better during a long run. Get a lot of heat in that engine and it burns off the carbon and can flow properly again :wink:

 

Sorry, not trying to come across as an arrogant cock and belittle your comments but I have experience in these things :lol:

 

Stick a fresh head on a VR6 and it feels like a new engine, I kid you not.

[Joe M 0]

Or run a couple of cans of 10K boost through it. That stuff works wonders.

[vr6storm 0]

Sorry, not trying to come across as an arrogant **** and belittle your comments but I have experience in these things :lol:

 

Stick a fresh head on a VR6 and it feels like a new engine, I kid you not.

 

 

LOL.....don't worry m8.........like i said probably talking out my arse :oops: :oops: ...........tbh i think i was getting confused with carbon build up on exhuasts :oops:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Nah not at all mate.

 

You won't get the same levels of carbon build ups on the head these days compared to 10 years ago as Optimax et al are actually very good at preventing it, but Corrados used for short journeys would benefit from a good 200+ mile motorway run.

 

And remember, the hotter that exhaust manifold gets, the more powerful the engine will feel. I like to see my manifolds glow cherry red, and indeed the rear bank of exhaust valves on the VR do glow red during a hard and prolonged thrape :lol:

[dan 0]

Or run a couple of cans of 10K boost through it. That stuff works wonders.

 

Don't know about that Joe... I used it on my VR & it just clogged my ISV (among other things). I wouldn't recommend it

[Jimbob1970 0]

Thanks for all the comments guys.

I gave it a bit more of a thrash this morning, and there IS more power after 4,500 than I had before. It really pulls hard after 5,000.

I have lost power at about 3,500 though.

I will get a K&N panel filter in it, and get a full tank of Optimax, and see what that does.

Below 4,000 rpm I get bogo standard Clio's and Fiesta's pulling away from me up a steep hill.

After 4,500 rpm I am flying past them like they are stood still!

There is definitely more of a pronounced 'power band' now, it will take a change in the way I drive it as LvP said above.

 

Thanks chaps.

Jimbob (now saving up for a VR6.....)

:roll:

[dr_mat 0]

Ha - the VR6 is the same. Ok, shifted up another 40lbft across the range, but still this duality. Stick a Schrick on it and you're talking though...

[h100vw 0]

Thanks for all the comments guys.

I gave it a bit more of a thrash this morning, and there IS more power after 4,500 than I had before. It really pulls hard after 5,000.

I have lost power at about 3,500 though.

I will get a K&N panel filter in it, and get a full tank of Optimax, and see what that does.

Below 4,000 rpm I get bogo standard Clio's and Fiesta's pulling away from me up a steep hill.

After 4,500 rpm I am flying past them like they are stood still!

There is definitely more of a pronounced 'power band' now, it will take a change in the way I drive it as LvP said above.

 

Thanks chaps.

Jimbob (now saving up for a VR6.....)

:roll:

 

The only way to get more low down is with a 2 litre bottom end. However, as Kev points out, any significant skimming of the head will alter the cam timing and will require a vernier to correct it.

 

As an example my old mk1 1800 with pack C head and 103 cam gained 10-15 hp by fitting a pulley and setting up the cam timing. I fitted the pulley and set it as per the std one.

 

With some RR time, we got a solid 25 hp increase. when combined with setting the ignition timing. You could fit the pulley and adjust it yourself to see the improvement and maybe restore some of your lowdown go.

 

Even with your 'butt dyno' you can feel when there is an improvement. Also the ignition on an 1800 C is fixed, you need VSAM or Kstar to get things 100%. I wouldn't bother with the fuelling but the ign is a must. I had VSAM on my C and it was night and day. IMHO

 

You should consider the exhaust inlet cam mod to gain a bit more too.

 

Gavin