Starting Problems: possible lemon?

[sickVR6 0]

Hello all

 

Earlier this year I finally got around to buying myself a VR6, though possibly brought a bit of a lemon as have had a load of problems in the 6months I've now had it, mainly to do with electric and starting, culminating with the current one, where my car is a real pain to start. Any info much appreciated. Its a bit of a long post but i wanted to give as much info as possible.

 

Its a 94L VR6 120K Standard Spec

 

Ill start with a brief history of work completed and related problms that preceded it.

 

To date I've had the following work completed>

New discs/pads/calipers front and back

New headlight switch and fault check on wiring after it shorted and started smoking!

Windscreen sealant replaced drivers side to prevent leak in footwell

New HT leads, cam cover gasket to repair misfire

removal of locking wheel nuts after last garage lost the key!

MOT: boots/tyres/belt damper

 

This all cost a fair bit as im no mechanic and had all work done at a garage. :oops:

 

I've also had the follwing problems:

 

Immobiloser does not always cut-out.

This meant that it could take about 5-10 attempts to get the car to turn over in order to start. Garages could not work it. However after having battery drain problems. The AA immediately realised that the battery fitted was too small for the car (was fiesta sized). Replacing this fixed the above problem.

 

car does not start when engine warm

The car would start first time in the morning but by the time id got to work (35miles) if I turned off the engine - it would not start again unless left for a few hours. The engine would turn over but would not fire up.MOst annoying if you want to stop off for petrol anywhere!

 

Engine does not start when warm or cold

THis has now progressed to where the engine does not start easily when cold.

If warm the engine will not start at all. IF it is cold, i.e first thing in the morning or after being left for a few hours then it can take anywhere between 5 and 25 mins of trying the to start it before it fires up. I have found that the chances can be imrpoved by flooring the accelerator as the ignition is turned.

 

I took it to the garage and the ECU fault codes were checked:

Air Mass FLow Sensor faulty

Both engine speed sensors faulty

 

All three were changed for about 450 pounds. ouch :shock: AND this did not even fix the problem. :(

To kop it all off the garage reported no problems starting though thankfully it took its usual ages to start when I went to pick it up.

THey were clueless as to what the problem could be so its still not sorted.

 

I love this car but having to factor in 30 mins to any journey to cover starting problems is a real pain. Also when I fill up I have to get it pushed off the forecourt where it can cool down for a good 30 mins before i try starting it again...

 

PLease please does anyone have any ideas!??

 

Then i can look into fixing the sunroof and radio! :?

[dr_mat 0]

Fuel pressure problems? Stuck injectors? When it fires does it run on all cylinders, like it's supposed to, or does it just cough and splutter a bit? Does it run well: pull hard, and right the way up to the redline when it's running?

There's only one engine speed sensor, but they probably changed the cam position sensor too. Yeah, that's an EXPENSIVE hit. :(

(The main engine speed sensor will always show a fault code if the engine isn't turning over, by the way, I hope they didn't just test it with the engine not running and declare it kaput based on that!)

 

Have you tried the spare keys? Common problem is the immobiliser circuit. There's a chip in the key..

 

I suspect an immobiliser problem, myself, if the car runs well when it starts but won't always start.

[dr_mat 0]

Oh, if you have VAG-COM (or know someone who does), there's a measuring block page for the ECU's built-in immobiliser which tells you if the key that's in the ignition has been authorised correctly or not.

[sickVR6 0]

Hi, thanks for the quick response.

 

No, once the car is up an running theres no coughin or anything, not sure if its running on all cylinders (told you i was no mechanic! :oops: ). The car seems to pull as well as it always has, though i've never been in another VR6 for comparison.

It does not seem to stall, surge or anything, its quite smooth.

 

I have tried over keys, though its an after market alarm/immobilsor (Cobra7928). I press one button to disable alarm and immobilsor and another for just the immobilsor. I rarely leave the alarm on now. I dont thinks its the immbilosor since when it is engaged the car will not even turn over, which it is doing fine. I did originally have a problem with the immobilsor not letting the car turn over but this was sorted by replacing the battery..

 

Any other ideas?

 

As for the garage im starting to have my doubts I reckon they may have done just as you have suggested...

[vr6storm 0]

taking a few times to turn-over,difficulty starting from hot this garage that checked the fault codes...........did they elimante the coolant temp sensor???......cos thats the sort of mischief that that lil devil can cause on a VR............good news tho...........tis under £10 for the sensor and takes a VW-dealer 30mins tops to change :wink:

[dr_mat 0]

VAG-COM can read off the engine temp sensor readings too, so you should be able to see if those readings make sense or not.

But yes, as said, if the ECU's reading is 90 deg C out when it's trying to start the engine, chances are it's not gonna work! What sort of MPG are you getting?

[dinkus 10]

Well I'm having starting problems too, although they may not be the same as yours.

 

Mine will never start well when it's been left for a long time, which according to Vince at Stealth (the daddy of the VR) is most likely to be my fuel pump. If you can hear a whining coming from the rear of the car on the drivers side, that's your fuel pump straining and probably won't be helping your problem. The cheap option is to replace the fuel filter which is about £8 from GSF. If that doesn't help, the pump itself is about £100.

 

However, as yours doesn't start from hot, it could well be entirely un-related. Changing the fuel filter is a good idea anyway though (see here).

 

The other favourites are as vr6storm says the blue coolant sensor for the ECU (£10 from VW and easy as pie to fit) and/or dirty injectors. The dirty injectors is unlikely as it would make it run pretty badly all the time. I did suggest this to Vince and he said that in his 10yrs of working on VR's he'd never known of any with injector problems...

 

Also, if you've been having electrical gremlins with your immobiliser, it could well be that that's giving you grief. It sounds like you've had that fairly well checked out though.

 

Lastly, I know someone else has been having starting woes with their VR recently and it was down to a gammy starter relay, so that could be another (fairly cheap) option to check out.

 

So err yeah, good luck ;)

[Joe M 0]

Could also be the fuel pump relay, they can get sticky and its worse when they warm up.

[monVR6 0]

I had the same problem with my 95M VR6 - turned out to be the Idle stabilisation valve - ISV. Not cheap - about £250 I think - but this was done by VW under warranty from the (TVR) dealer I bought it from. Anyway - same symptoms, but if I gave it some gas when it was turning over - it would start - and could even be driven, but would stall as soon as I approached roundabouts, lights etc - real pain in the a**e. But - as it could be driven, I didn't get stranded.

 

Hope this helps - good luck!

[sickVR6 0]

HI All

 

Thanks for the info. I don't know what diagnostics the garage used but they reported no more faults once they had replaced the sensors (air flow, engine speed etc). Might be worth checking this coolant sensor though if that cheap.

 

Speaking of coolant levels - my car seems to get quite hot, even If i stick to about 80 and dont accelerate hard it can easyily be nudging 130 by the end of a 30 mile trip - is this normal?

 

Back to the sensors, a friend of a friend actually spoke to a VW garage for me and the first thing they said was ECU supply relay or fuel pump relay -both quite cheap so hopefully its one of these - i'll let you know how I get on.

 

Cheers!

[dinkus 10]

Thanks for the info. I don't know what diagnostics the garage used but they reported no more faults once they had replaced the sensors (air flow, engine speed etc). Might be worth checking this coolant sensor though if that cheap.

 

They would have used VAG-COM, which is the VW diagnostics software, but quite often dead sensors don't show up. The sensor will still be working, but it'll be giving screwy numbers, so the ECU thinks that's what's actually going on. Might as well replace the sensor tho. You need to be quick and/or do a full coolant change when you change it cos the coolant will gush out as soon as you unplug it ;)

 

Speaking of coolant levels - my car seems to get quite hot, even If i stick to about 80 and dont accelerate hard it can easyily be nudging 130 by the end of a 30 mile trip - is this normal?

 

Oil or coolant? Either sound a bit high to me, I would guess this is oil temp as if you're getting coolant temps that high you'll be blowing hoses. The oil shouldn't go much above 120 IIRC (don't hold me to that), but if you're sitting in traffic a lot then it does get pretty high. If you're going to be changing coolant sensors, it's also worth listening to see if your fans come on or not when the coolant gets up to 100+ (again not sure of the exact temp that they should kick in). The sensors that contol the fans are the other 2 either side of the blue ECU one.

 

Back to the sensors, a friend of a friend actually spoke to a VW garage for me and the first thing they said was ECU supply relay or fuel pump relay -both quite cheap so hopefully its one of these - i'll let you know how I get on.!

 

Start with the cheapest things then go for the more expensive stuff as a last resort :)

 

Good luck!!

[dr_mat 0]

VAGCOM is not VW supplied. The VW 1551 fault code reader tools are £N,000 for traders only. VAGCOM is heavily third party, but let's face it, it's pretty much as good as the real thing.

If you're hitting 130 degrees C on the oil OR coolant then something it's working right. Maybe the aux water pump, maybe the oil/water heat exchanger, maybe the thermostat. But that's not right. Even in the height of summer, with 100+mph on the clock I never see more than 120 degrees on the oil temp.

As dinkus says, make sure the water cooling system is working right too - if the water temp gauge is going silly, expect the oil temp to follow!

And yeah, gotta be worth checking out those relays...

[sickVR6 0]

OK, checked ECU Relay 109 today, heard it click as ignition turned so seemed to be working OK, but as only a tenner brought a new one just in case. But problem stills exists. I also got the blue coolant sensor and will try and fit over the weekend. Going to try and check fuel supply too...

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Bypass the immobiliser and see if that helps. I had a similar problem in an old Golf and it was that causing it.

 

I hope when they checked your sensors they did so with the engine running? There is a known bug with the Bosch ECU that reports the engine and vehicle speed sensors as being faulty when the engine isn't turning.

 

The idle valve is another good one. If it jams shut, the engine won't idle or start properly.

 

Bear with it..... it's difficult diagnosing these things over the internet as you can appreciate, but sounds like you've done all the common things.

 

My money is on that immobiliser.

 

I would take it to an auto-electrician and leave with them for a day to check all the circuits.

 

Another thing mentioned already is the fuel pump. As they get old, they get a bit flakey and cause problems.

[sickVR6 0]

OK, not much progress made over the weekend. This Blue coolant sensor, anyone know how it is held in? And can it be changed in-situ? I removed the connector from the top but the sensor it self was in quite tight as if something is holding it there.

 

How dO I bypass the immobilsor? THough if that is the problem then would that not mean that the car would not even turn over. (which is what happens if I forget to disarm it before trying the ignition....

 

Thanks in advance!

[dinkus 10]

OK, not much progress made over the weekend. This Blue coolant sensor, anyone know how it is held in? And can it be changed in-situ? I removed the connector from the top but the sensor it self was in quite tight as if something is holding it there

 

There's a metal wire clip that holds it in, you need to unclip that (watch out it might ping off somewhere) and then pull the sensor out.

 

Have the new one ready when you do though as the coolant will gush out. Oh and best do it when the engine is cold eh ;)

[Henny 0]

ALWAYS remove the expansion tank cap before trying to replace the temp senders... this releases any pressure in the system and prevents you from spraying coolant onto yourself... put the cap back on again before removing the sensor, and the coolant won't leak very much as the cap will seal the system well enough that it'll only leak a little bit out... 8)

[Scruffythefirst 0]

You need to undo the bracket directly above the sensor though, because it prevents you from pullign the clip out. Only 1 bolt and takes seconds.

 

A cool engine is a good idea, especialy if you get someone else to do it for you, they may not appreciate a hot hand. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: You coming over for lunch dom, and have you sorted that film out yet?

[Rpmayne 0]

I know this is last resort but have you thought of taking it to VW? I had all kinds of grief with mine starting / not starting / cutting out when warm. When it did run though, smooth and as powerful as I think a VR should be.

 

It went to several garages and had no conclusive problems found. Eventually out of despiration took it to VW. £350 later they found the immobiliser had been fitted badly and one of the solder joints had been intermittently breaking inside the heatshrink cover. Also the temperatire sensor as already mentioned was reading a constant 110ish degrees. Sweet as a nut now, and although £350 sounds a lot, if I'd done that to start with I would have saved loads.

 

I won't be dismissing them as easily next time anyway.

[dinkus 10]

I know this is last resort but have you thought of taking it to VW? I had all kinds of grief with mine starting / not starting / cutting out when warm. When it did run though, smooth and as powerful as I think a VR should be.

 

It went to several garages and had no conclusive problems found. Eventually out of despiration took it to VW. £350 later they found the immobiliser had been fitted badly and one of the solder joints had been intermittently breaking inside the heatshrink cover. Also the temperatire sensor as already mentioned was reading a constant 110ish degrees. Sweet as a nut now, and although £350 sounds a lot, if I'd done that to start with I would have saved loads.

 

I won't be dismissing them as easily next time anyway.

 

:shock: :shock: Dear lord don't do that! Take it to a VW Specialist, not the monkeys in blue!

[jedi-knight83 0]

if your in sussex area why dont you give JMR a ring. he is very knowledgeable about the corrado...worked for VW when it was released and now works for an indapendant / his own company.

 

be closer than taking it to stealth...i cant comment on if he is as good as stealth though as i havent been to stealth myself

 

JMR 07974 020031

[Henny 0]

Stealth wins on Gearboxes 'cos John doesn't yet do them! ;) :roll:

 

Pretty much everything else though, I'd put them up there together in the ranks of good mechanics.... 8)

[Rpmayne 0]

I don't really understand why VW gets such a slating apart from the above average prices. The back street garages who had always been very good couldn't find the problems, and a Bosch diagnostics garage said it had mechanically seized and charged me £65.00 for the trouble (turned out to be hydraulic lock cos the ECU was f**ked). Nobody gets everything right, you hope they're just honest about it so you don't end up paying for the mistakes. Do people generally think VW don't know their own cars then? Possibly abit unfair in general? :roll: I'm not getting paid to say this btw. :)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

To be fair, I think people's biggest gripe with VW is their parts prices as you say..... a lot of younger people just starting out in the VW scene are no doubt finding the prices ridiculous. Even I'm still shocked and I've been driving them since 1990!

 

Anyway, it's the parts that VW get stung for, that we in turn get hammered for.....such as bits supplied by OE third parties, the sunroof parts for instance, all Crock-of-sh1twell International. Then there's all the trims which were farmed out to karmann and who ever in turn makes them for them.....all criminally insane prices......same with Liestritz exhausts, all the Bosch tatt, the Relays etc etc.......

 

But your regular mechanicals that VW did actually have something to do with are all as per Golf prices and not too badly priced as a whole.

[dinkus 10]

Do people generally think VW don't know their own cars then? Possibly abit unfair in general? :roll: I'm not getting paid to say this btw. :)

 

Yup, with a whole host of testimonials to back up how bad they are and they charge a fortune for the privilege. Most of the monkeys that work in their servicing departments have been 'trained' to go through a list of points to do. They won't have been working on Corrados for the last 10yrs and they won't be able to spot anything that isn't on their list.

 

I'm not saying that back-street garages are any better, (although they are cheaper) but a VW specialist such as Stealth or JMR are much better qualified, experienced, priced and honest than a VW stealership.