Desigining an intercooler

[Rams 0]

I have 3 chinese friends that are all engineers and spend there lifes working on cars and bikes. The mainly specilize in transport refrigeration and air con systems.

 

One guy inparticular came up with the idea about installing a sort of fridge system to cool the air into the engine. That is my english of what I managed to understand. What they went on about was just way over my head!

 

They have drawn several designs and want to use my car as the project car. They have all the access to the tools and materials. But we all went to the Harvister for dinner last night and it turned out to be a 3 hour conversation about how this would work and how it would bre driven.

 

The other idea is to be able to have the system switchable and to programm a temperature once we know what the best opperating temperature is. i.e. the temp at night is much lower than during a summers hot day.

 

If anyone is interested in finding out more, then please email me as we are looking to have the kit manufactured for the Corraod and other jap cars. My chinese mates like there jap cars so much, but they all like my VR6 and want to help me produce better power and reliability.

 

This is the very beginning stages of an idea, these guys wanted to do something earlier but time and money were all relevant, as it is to all of us. The fact that this system will be started off on my VR6 gives us an advantage. Induction kits can only go so far.

 

They are going to crack on with the ideas and get som nice ally cases and piping so the kit looks tasty. I will keep you all informed as to what progress they are achieving and the results and pics when its finished.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Andi 2,147,483,647]

Surely a 'fridge' system would be too slow and would have little or no effect on air rushing into the car.

You would need an adapted aircon system - but then running aircon draws power so the gains you would see you would immediately lose from running the system in the first place.

Unless you wanna just run it to keep things cool...

Or are they just developing an 'intercooler'? Could've sworn I've seen them around somewhere before...

 

I can't quite work out what this project is meant to achieve!

[Rams 0]

The were discussing the bennifits, there was talk about the air con type system, i.e running througha kompressor, but they have some amazing ideas. The know that running the system ona pully will slow the car down, so they have ideas on how to run the system through a different method to which we I need to stay quiet about.

 

I will bet my life that they produce something robust and full proove.

 

I would prefer to have someone on the case with us that has superior knowledge so the design structure is aided by background knowledge which I dont have for the sort of scale they are talinkg about, it doesnt actually sound much different that chinese to me.

 

I was in 2 minds weather to say anthing or not, but im sure similar odeas are known and it is for the C so I though I would let you in to my plan with them.

 

I have someone else manufacturing domething for the VR6 which people are going to love and think is well worth buying. This mod is only a cosmetic mod, but everyoine likes shiney stuff under the bonnett. He works for a company that designs stuff for teh MOD, and is extremly talanted in this sort of design. In a week or so it should be completed and I will get a pic of it on and post it and see what you guys think.

 

Its amazing how many people I know that are talented with this sort of work, what the hell happened to me :lol:

[Bournemouth James 0]

Changing the subject Rams, mate, I passed you on herbert avenue on saturday, I waved but you did'nt see me

[Banana Man 0]

How about a kind of charge cooler ie a core wrapped in a jacket and then instead of running a mixture of water and antifreeze in to cool the intake charge pipe pure N2O ( Nitrous oxide) into it and have a purge kit fitted so the old wasted nitrous can be vented for new stuff that is a sure way to cool the intake charge of any modded car weather it be turbo'd, supercharged or naturally aspirated. Nitrous express do the N-tercooler kit which sprays N20 onto your intercooler so why not encase the n2o into a jacket around an intercooler core, dont know how long the n2o would stay cold for before it would have to wasted to atmosphere but it would be interesting to see how effective it would be, although a 10lb bottle would cost around £40 to fill each time ( bit dear ) or even compressed co2 has a cooling effect which is alot cheaper to buy and get hold of, but would it be efficient enough to cool the intake air enough to make a difference????? Just thought I would throw that idea into pot!! :D

[sc16v 0]

Two other options could be use water injection or move to iceland :D

 

keep us updated Rams with any news. :D

[W3RKD 0]

like sc16v says whats the point rams ?? just use water injection..as you have no "charge" to cool down i really dont see how this could/would benifit ...

[Rams 0]

Trust me, they know what they are doing. It is probably me thats getting it wrong as I was trying to understand the logic from their conversation. Anyway, they have the idea, they mentioned something along the lines of babannaman in the sence of a canister, being insulated etc, etc. I am here to promote the idea as I am the one with the C, and the one that would love to see my C

 

You guys dont need to worry about the design, I just want to know if you guys thing that if this idea does work it will be of interest to you lot. Once its completed then you will all know hoe the system works and make your own mind up anbout the design but I promise, you won't find loop holes. Not with these guys. Anyone is welcome to have a chat with them, as I said, I need someone with VW C knowledge first to be able to assist them faster than them working it out. YThey havent said they want anyone, it was just my idea and that someone that helps us out can be an extra in the line to enable us to promote the system.

 

I will keep you all posted as I believe in them and they are not stupid. Hey, its an idea between friends, we all meet up and chat about performance and what gains you get if you do this or that, thats just what we have done but on the subject of cold air to help intercool the engine and enable the engine to perform better in order to achieve more power etc.

 

If it doesnt get pulled off its no big loss, its only what we plan to do, but Im sure they will design something that you all will like and want to use.

 

They have the idea how to cool the system down, they are looking into desired temperatures to take them forward.

 

The proof is in the pudding! :lol:

[Rams 0]

Bournemouth James, I did e mail you a few weeks ago asking if you wanted to meet up with myselff and another VR6 owner. I didnt hear back from you.

 

Herbet avenue..... I do know where that is but for some reason I have just had a memory blank and cant remember exactly where it is? It will come to ,me. I must have my work brain on today!

 

Was I behind you? I was meaning to go another way and spotted the car as it looks nice and thought you may want to play but we needed different turnings.

 

Is your heat shield on the exhaust making a funny noise or am I thinking of someone completely different?

[exturbo2003 0]

using a aircon system to cool intake charges is not a new idea. If your car is CHARGED the temp rises on a hot day, if cooled to a 20degree or less would produce more power then what the compresser drains, plus would stop detting and piston meltdown. stll cold air helps all as if there is an enrichment device and a cooling device then together more power.

[Chris VR6nos 0]

A charge cooler is the better for supercharged systems than turbos from all the research i have read into and the people i've spoken to.

Water injection is the best answer for results to cost equation but can only really bring the charge temp down to ambient temp but adding other solutions can help within limits. 40C is apparently the optimum charge temp.

N2O will stay at -160C for as long as it is compressed but there you have the problem because of the pressure involved to contain the N2O.

 

A combination of the charge cooler and the refridgeration system is called an igloo and Vortech who make the chargers i have on my VR manufacture an igloo but the cost is prohibitive at between £1200-£1500 and all the drag cars over 1000bhp use these.

 

So, if you are involved in the developement of a charge cooling heat exchanger, there will, I expext be plenty of people interested at the right price.

 

 

 

Chris

[exturbo2003 0]

A charge cooler is the better for supercharged systems than turbos from all the research i have read into and the people i've spoken to.

 

Chris

why is a charge cooler more efficient on a supercharged car then a intercooler. A charge cooler relys on a rad to cool the water so far the same as a intercooler(rad) . ow you also have to rely on a pump, water supply, and air temps to mke it work, where as, an intercooler just rely's on the air so less o go wrong. i agree there is a shorter pipe work on a chargecooler so should be a lower boost drop but i would still go intercooler for simplicity and reliability, after all most manufacturers use inter over charge

[Chris VR6nos 0]

The higher end cars all use charge coolers because the benefit from an intercooler only happens once sufficiant air is passing through it! they are notoriously inefficiant at lower speeds, hance drag cars not using them. as there would be a drop in power instesd of an increase until the air-to-air intercooler reaces efficiency, this would be half way down the strip!

 

The air to water charge cooler is just as efficient at tickover and doesn't need a spray bar in front of it to cool it down when it looses efficiency once it has warmed up after a run! The charge cooler is an advancement over and beyond the intercooler and has been more developed for more efficiency, and my thoughts are, if you want simplicity, sell your C and get a fiesta!

 

 

 

Chris

[Andy91 0]

Im no car expert but i get a lot of time in a machining shop learning from my dad, getting another trade as well as my comp's. He's a qualified design engineer so he knows mechanics etc etc

 

I cant be arsed to fraw a diagram, but if you pass air down a taper in a vortex fashion, then i think the cold air rush's around the outside (more dense) and the hot air circles in the middle (less dense). If you attach this to a compressor (and ive seen this done), not necessaarily a big one! and draw air off from the outside, then its COLD !!! the air taken from the middle was enough (when passed around a cup of water) to boil a cup full of water in about 5-6 seconds. Therefore i would guess the cold air is of the same magnitude!!

 

This would work as you can get compressed air, its free, and if a charger/ram air was used you would get VERY cold ari VERY quick.

 

Im not the mechanic my Dad is, so if ive just quoted the workings of one of the things youv mentioned above forgive me im still learning the good bits of tuning cars :twisted: And the figures may be a little inaccurate, BUT i know the potential is there, fine tuning could be hard though!!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Chargecoolers are not as effective as intercoolers. The best intercoolers are large front mounted ones with water spray (not water injection).

 

Kev

[LowG 0]

Chargecoolers are not as effective as intercoolers. The best intercoolers are large front mounted ones with water spray (not water injection).

 

Kev

 

true but if you got a big enough and efficient intercooler you wont need water spray. I got the porsche 944 intercooler on my G60,works v nice and the front mount location is very usefull,i also have a water spray system installed but i never use it because is really inecessary as the intercooler never gets hot even when standing still. Im runing a new charger on a small pulley and the tourque the car provides is amazing.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

It's all a big compromise. Too big an intercooler and you get a pressure drop, too small a one and you get ineffective cooling.

 

Water spray only kicks in when the car is moving slowly, to boost cooling. Certain imprezas use this method and it's very effective.

 

Kev

[ruffy 0]

It's all a big compromise. Too big an intercooler and you get a pressure drop, too small a one and you get ineffective cooling.

 

Water spray only kicks in when the car is moving slowly, to boost cooling. Certain imprezas use this method and it's very effective.

 

Kev

 

Hello mate..

I like this forum..

Kev me old bean .. i really have to disagree with your charge cooler theory .. we've done a little testing on a large core front mounted inter-coolers on 1.8t's, and a pace charge cooler.. you wouldn't image the amount of difference the charge cooler makes .. down side is the charge cooler cost twice as much ..

even Dave Walker from cc was shocked with the result..

 

Andy ..

[Kevin Bacon 5]

It's all a big compromise. Too big an intercooler and you get a pressure drop, too small a one and you get ineffective cooling.

 

Water spray only kicks in when the car is moving slowly, to boost cooling. Certain imprezas use this method and it's very effective.

 

Kev

 

.. i really have to disagree with your charge cooler theory

 

Quite alright, everyone's entitled to their own opinion!

 

.. we've done a little testing on a large core front mounted inter-coolers on 1.8t's, and a pace charge cooler.. you wouldn't image the amount of difference the charge cooler makes .. down side is the charge cooler cost twice as much ..

even Dave Walker from cc was shocked with the result..

 

Andy ..

 

Glad you've had good results with your testing. I've seen two pace chargecoolers in action, one on a 2.0G60 and the other on a 300+bhp 1.8T and on both occasions, the level of cooling was way off what an intercooler would provide. In fact, on the 1.8T engine, a full size car radiator was used during road testing for the chargecooler and inlet charge temperature remained constant. It just simply wasn't up to the job of cooling the engine's charge. Utter cr#p for the money.

 

And that was my learned opinion :lol:

 

Kev

[ruffy 0]

It's all a big compromise. Too big an intercooler and you get a pressure drop, too small a one and you get ineffective cooling.

 

Water spray only kicks in when the car is moving slowly, to boost cooling. Certain imprezas use this method and it's very effective.

 

Kev

 

.. i really have to disagree with your charge cooler theory

 

Quite alright, everyone's entitled to their own opinion!

 

.. we've done a little testing on a large core front mounted inter-coolers on 1.8t's, and a pace charge cooler.. you wouldn't image the amount of difference the charge cooler makes .. down side is the charge cooler cost twice as much ..

even Dave Walker from cc was shocked with the result..

 

Andy ..

 

Glad you've had good results with your testing. I've seen two pace chargecoolers in action, one on a 2.0G60 and the other on a 300+bhp 1.8T and on both occasions, the level of cooling was way off what an intercooler would provide. In fact, on the 1.8T engine, a full size car radiator was used during road testing for the chargecooler and inlet charge temperature remained constant. It just simply wasn't up to the job of cooling the engine's charge. Utter cr#p for the money.

 

And that was my learned opinion :lol:

 

Kev

 

 

 

Kev I like conversations like this..

The testing we've done has involve a 4 core charge unit unlike the 2 core that you normally find on the Jab*a sport kits or such like..

your right there just not up to the job in my book..

where runing a kit that would be suited to a cossie 500..

but there's always the installation of the kit to think about eg rate collant around the system to fast and it wont cool down effiently to slow and you have heat soak ... but i wont bore you we should meet up and chat mate..

:lol: :lol: :cry:

[forcefed_vw 0]

Just a couple of points to add. Regarding the "intercooler/fridge system". It wil never work. 1) Your friends haven't considered the pressure drop (technical term for back pressure or system resistance against airflow). In a normal aspirated engine any back pressure in the intake will restrict the amount of air/fuel per revolution. 2) The dwell time would be too short for the fridge core to cool the air unless it was the size of the bonnet. 3) the compressor the drive the fridge wiuld draw far more power than the engine makes 4) the whole thing is irrelevant because the air has not been compressed and therefore heated anyway.

 

Another point, there is no boost pressure loss when using a large intercooler. The pressure remains constant but the velocity of the air in the core will decrease. This is desirable as the velocity in the system is directly proportional to the back pressure. The dwell time will also increase meaning that there is more exposure to the cooling fins.

 

i doubt that charge coolers work any better than Intercoolers. I have seem both fitted to G60s. Charge coolers are easier to install in tight spots and give better cooling in traffic (until the water in the rad gets hot too). My intercooler works superbly even with 17psi.

[Andy91 0]

Now is that the kind of cheerful enthusiasm any1 expects from a C man ?

 

Probably wont work but still !! :D