The Definitive 4wd Conversion thread

[double-6s 0]

ok, purely from a layman's perspective here......

 

barnacle like?

i find it quite easy to unstick the rear. is my car fekked? or are you talking without deliberate provocation mr wire?

[GazzaG60 0]

back end sticks like glue i think. rear bearings may need a nip or replacing, thats when ive felt loosness.

 

im not sure on the 4wd v 2wd one.

 

from all accounts the vw 4x4 system aint that good. it cant handle much grief unless you go haldex. there are numerous vws in the states making 10-12 sec quarters on 2wd. gotta be something to say for that.

[CoxyLaad 0]

forget the syncro system, thats not what I have. I have proper 4motion haldex setup with the proper mk4 controller.

 

feck it I am fitting it, may be a mistake but what the hell. I will certainly need it should I charge the engine. 350bhp through the front wheels is just silly.

[dr_mat 0]

Independant rear suspension ... .. just soaks up bumps better.

 

Anyway, back on T..... I'm not convinced the Rado 'needs' 4x4 but it's certainly novel :-) Great for quick take offs and poor weather grip....but in all honesty, I've rarely ever found the rado to be lacking in mechanical grip.

 

Big advantage of independant rear suspension is the greatly reduced unsprung mass, which will improve grip aswell as ride quality.

 

You're probably right about most circumstances with the Quaiffe being enough (I wouldn't be able to comment, having never driven one!) - but the question here is

 

"I've got a 4x4 setup ready to go in - should I ditch it and buy an LSD or carry on down the 4x4 route"

 

Given your comment about the wet weather grip too, Kev, for me the answer to the above question would have to be "keep the 4x4!".

[GazzaG60 0]

thats one description for it. ive been in lots of 350+hp subarus and they dont feel that fast but that maybe due to their greater holding abilities as much as their transmission losses.

 

the only time you need the 4wd is the start or in the wet. for me i dont drive fast in the wet and most of my stuff is midrange. on the strip ill run slicks so..

 

i have done this deliberation too and am sticking FWD for my new engine. i want the economy on the long drive that most 4wd cars have not a chance of meeting.

[CoxyLaad 0]

Big advantage of independant rear suspension is the greatly reduced unsprung mass, which will improve grip aswell as ride quality.

 

I dont think that applies in this case, the 2wd axle legs weigh nowt, the syncro ones weigh a fair bit.

 

thats one description for it. ive been in lots of 350+hp subarus and they dont feel that fast but that maybe due to their greater holding abilities as much as their transmission losses.

 

Horrocks said that his 4wd corrado didnt feel that quick, but its down to the total lack of wheelspin. His track times prove that it is a very quick car indeed

 

i have done this deliberation too and am sticking FWD for my new engine. i want the economy on the long drive that most 4wd cars have not a chance of meeting.

never heard that one before, I dont believe the 4wd has that big an impact on economy does it?

[steve @ 0]

Yeah 4wd will reduce economy for the simple fact that its having to drive 4 rather than two wheels.

[dr_mat 0]

Extra drag from that big long centre prop-shaft, mainly. Dunno how much difference it will make, doubt it would be vastly noticeable.

[And I suppose the weight advantage of independant rear suspension is lost with the extra driveshafts and diff, true enough.]

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Fit the carbon propshaft from the 350Z....should save a bit of weight :-)

 

Double-6s, I mean barnacle like with general, but spirited driving. I've only stoked the arse out once, deliberately, on a wet bend and it just twitched slightly and needed no more than an 1/8th turn opposite lock to correct... that was at about 40 mph with medium braking force. If I stamped on the brakes mid bend then I'm sure it would need a good deal more lock, but it really does take a lot work to get it out of shape. It's one very grippy car for it's age....

[dr_mat 0]

Heh, I had full opposite lock one morning on a greasy roundabout at only 35 mph ...

Admittedly both back tyres turned out to be illegal ... :)

[CoxyLaad 0]

A carbon prop shaft will not be much lighter than the modified 4motion one I have.

they are incredibly light. The standard syncro propshaft is about 5- 6 times heavier!

[PhatVR6 0]

Ok, here goes! I've been ASKED to ad my opinions so please don't complain as I waflle on!! I believe I probably have more experience than most on this topic, so here goes!

 

Having owned a mk2 2.8 (and then a 2.9) VR6 for a few years I'd gotten tired of the god-awful gear ratios. I'd also worked out for myself that the understeer "horror" that people used to go on about was largely due to the amount of power you have to put down through the front wheels with an open diff and NOT due to weight fo the engine. Something mk2 1.8T owners are now finding out....Anyway, I blew that gearbox up at York dragway a good few years back, and all I can say is good riddance.

 

I was straight ont he phone to stealth and TSR and played them off against each other on prices for a quaife diff, and in the end I plumped for a quaife diff, with a gemini 6 speed kit, 3.94 final drive (I detested the 3.3 in the vr6 box) and a longer 6th. This gearbox sat in my conservatory for a year as I was still messing about with the mk2 golf shell. Suring this time I found out it'd had a rear end shunt and theboot floor was buckled. Marcel from http://www.dutchdub.com convinced me that cutting the boot floor out and replacing it with a rallye one and going 4wd would be the way forwards. like a nutter I agreed! so I went over to holland to meet him and buy a vr6 syncro setup off one of his mates. I got a smashed up rallye shell of volksspeed and cut the floorpan out on my driveway(much to the delight of my neighbours!). Anyway, I got all the floorpan and tunnel in, but never got around to finishing it off. I'd had the gearbox back to stealth and he swapped the syncro bellhousing on it. unfortunately I had to sell the unused quaife diff on and buy a peloquin item ,as quaife weren't interested in making one for a syncro application.

 

ANYWAY, the box was sitting unused, and I'd missed a season or 2 and I was getting bored. so I bought a mk2 golf 16v shell off a mate for £100 and put all my vr6 gear in it, with this fresh box and schrick VGI etc etc, but only in 2wd format (with the transfer box output flange just left spinning in fresh air).

 

With this car I managed to get a 13.74 1/4 mile time, a full second quicker than the old mk2, and a 20.34 60' time, which has got to be good for a mid 5 second 0-60. it was quick. I also took the car on a few trackdays. my first ever go being at Kames, the clubgti scottish national day trackday. My tracking was SO far out I wore out the front tyres just driving up there! so I swapped the wheels over and did the track day. My first ever go, and I managed to come 3rd! A few weeks later I had a go at the Curborough track day, again, held by club gti. I took a mate along too (I was still banned at the time!) and we took alternative goes in the car. He could not believe the grip available from the diff. It really is a mind altering feeling for anyone used to a powerful FWD car. Gone is the frustration of having understeer coming out of corners, and you WILL find yourself going around roundabouts a few times! anyway, the car was driven in all weathers for 5 months. in the dry it was amazing and I oculd only get it to spin the wheels if I REALLY wanted to, but it'd still light up BOTH fornt wheels in 2nd gear coming ouf the first right hander at curborough. Now, this car was a pile of crap. it was thrown together on my dirveway, never had a geometry setup, yet it was a right track tool and a total blast. I was going to 4wd it, but the corrado came instead. from that day on I was "into" track days, and all the showy stuff just fell by the wayside. For his reason, I had had enough of the mk2 shell and decided to buy a corrado. the day I got my license back (the mk2 was so quick I got banned after a high speed chase on the first day I had it on the road!) I bought my corrado.

 

 

The corrado was going to be a track car, but I decided it was too nice so I made it into a road car, then tracked it anyway!! It started off as an 8v, but my rebuilt 2.9, along with the schrick and the gemini box made it into the car too. I ran it in 2wd for about 6 months. again tackling the curborough circuit with even better results than the mk2, it handled so much better, but I was STILL getting both wheels spinning out of that tight corner and in the wet it was still a handful and I could spin in 3rd (the mk2 could spin through 4th in the wet!!) with of course, the horrid understeer returning.

 

After a slight oil seal accident, the 2.9 died so I was stuck with a choice. fit another 2.9, or fit the 3,2 24v that I'd bought for the mk2. you know the rest....

 

I fitted the 3.2, then over xmas decided i'd do another 4wd conversion, this time with a brand new floorpan and the vr6 syncro parts. I didn't actually get the car on the road until may, and just missed out on the croft trackday. but I did run it for a good few months on the road and on a couple of track days. again at curborough, this time beating a milestone time of getting a lap under 30 seconds, which for a car in full luxury road trim is some acheivement!! this time I didn't have the traction iissues out of the first bend. It felt weerd and it actually took me about 5 laps before I actually felt I was giving it enough. the traction was just silly, and as a result made the car FEEL slower! because it wasn't being a hooligan and lighting up the tyres, letting the engine roar, it was just gripping and pulling my round the corner. I have mpegs of the track runs, which have been posted up on here, compare them with the likes of the big power turbo cars, my corrado was far quicker out of the bends (if not along the straights :-( ). the final outing in the corrado was the GTI trackshow at donnington. in the same spec I took the car out there. again, the grip was so good it was almost boring at times! in fact, I had to take a rew leisurely laps as I'd killed the brakes and a wheel bearing. Although driving around the OUTSIDE of a 260bhp mk1 was rather amusing!

 

I now have a mk4 4 motion, which coxy's engine came out of. Even with 265bhp (at 5800rpm) I could only light up the tyres is the conditions were anything other than bone dry. It was such a quick and planted car I decided to keep it over the corrado (not now, I've keeping both!!). I haven't taken it on a track day, but I drive on a VERY twisty road to work each day, and I can almost gain as much speed in the bends asI could in the corrado. the best thing is the traction. rain, snow, ice, you name it, I never get stuck, the car just goes and goes. only problem now is it feels a bit gutless as it's a 2.8. also, I now have an ABS fault which has all but killed the 4wd. it now understeers quite badly when you try and pwoer it in the wet. need to get that fixed asap.

 

Finally, I even bought the missus a Golf Country. she works on a farm and has to drive through the woods in all weathers, the car has not got beaten by the weather yet (although I'd hardly say it HANDLES!).

 

so, a few cars, and just about every possiblity of weather conditions, road surfaces, track use, daily use, even drag strip use. Been there, and made my decision. I now have 3 cars, all 4WD. will I go back to FWD?? no, never ever. diff or not, you CANNOT match the traction of the 4wd. For track use, in dry weather, with slicks, yes, FWD is good enough, providing you don't have much more than ~250bhp. For anything else, and if it's to be used at all in this awful weather, you're mad not to want 4wd. As for the weight? pah, nonsense, you can't feel any penalty. the car feels stiffer, better balanced and turns in better. I even used to have a 1.8 carbed jetta syncro, and that drove far better than any mk2 gti I've ever owned or driven.

 

You have the parts, the know how and even the time to do this. it's only plain laziness that's stopping you.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I think that's your longest ever post on here! Good write up and good info ;-)

 

Looks like it's 4WD for you then Coxy!

[PhatVR6 0]

whitout a doubt my longest post! I didn't realise I wrote that much, just got carried away reminiscing (sp??) about the cars! and I thought I might have to put in some of the "history" to back up my opinion, rather than giving it the usual "it's great, that's why I've got it, if you haven't your a dick" style of posting wich doesn't seem to go down too well!

 

Thanks for taking the time to read it! I think there's only about 3 of us on here who've ever driven a 4wd corrado so I thought I'd say as much as i could!

[PhatVR6 0]

Interestingly, the Country will understeer if you push it in the wet or on mud, but the 4mo, when the haldex is working right doesn't understeer at all, it just goes straight to full on 4wd in an instant.

 

I will be going haldex on the corrado.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Yeah I read every word of it :-). If people have that much to say then it's going to make interesting reading, and it did!

 

Ian has been in a quandry about the 4x4 since he got the VR, so keep badgering him to get on with it :-)

 

This newer ECU for the Haldex, does it allow permanent 50/50 split, or does it just run FWD and then go into 50/50 when it detects traction loss? I've seen a cut away diagram of the haldex, would those plates over heat if it ran 50/50 permanently?

[CorradoVR6-Turbo 0]

That long post Paul inspires me to go out to the garage cut out the floor pan and weld in a 4wd setup....time to save :notworthy:

[vr6banana 0]

I’d say (yet again) build and finish it in 2wd with a diff, get the car running and set up as you like and then if you feel you are suffering with lack of traction then fit the rear diff etc, how can you gauge if the 4x4 setup is better if you’ve not run it in 2wd first.

As long as you make a diff mount you can still go back to using it as a 2wd car if you don’t like it as a 4wd. if you finish it as a 4x4 then it’s going to take you longer (and it’s about time you got something on the road) and you’ll be forever wondering if you’ve wasted your time and wouldn’t it be better just fwd.

By finishing it 2wd then your loosing nothing, you just get it on the road faster and you’ve still got the bits to 4x4 it, you get to use it this summer and if you want you could put the diff in next winter. and as for the “I need 4x4 for where I live” ……..go buy a tractor if you do :lol:

[PhatVR6 0]

Daz, I hope you don't mind me saying this, but your mk2 suffered VERY badly from lack of traction, yet you never went for a diff OR 4wd, even though it was a syncro shell!! and that's with 2220bhp and slicks!

the reaction of your Mick when he took it out at donny that first time, with me in the passenger seat as he wheel spun it through 3rd gear said it all (being an ex Audi S2 driver).

 

Yes, there is sense in what you're saying, and it is good to be able to experience both setups, but knowing coxy, he won't want to take the car off the road again so it's a case of now of never. ir more a cas of not now, and then being very frustrated with the cars' lack of grip.

[vr6banana 0]

Paul, the MK2 was different, I wanted to sort the car out in 2wd (ie setup) before I went 4x4 but it became evident straight away that it wasn’t going to entertain me for long even with 4x4.

 

If I were to carry on with the golf I would have put in a diff first and then the 4x4 after. what did put me off was the rear axle, no confidence in it at all, it may feel different with the rear diff driving but could that not be because it compensates for the poor characteristics of the rear axle???? Not sure without trying it but I didn’t see the point in developing something I wasn’t interested in.

 

Ian’s building something I think he’ll keep so he’s time to alter and develop things bit by bit, if you change everything then how do you know what part of it is wrong if it doesn’t drive and handle like you thought it would, go the same way as they set up cars and bikes for racing, change one thing at a time (not literally but you know what I mean)

 

ps: Mick just tries to kill everything I own anyway :lol:

[24V Renshaw 0]

Standard FWD - No.

Quaife/Peloquin FWD - Yes

Haldex - Yes.

Syncro - No.

 

:)

 

Jay

[PhatVR6 0]

I thought the golf handled well, I was impressed with the turn in and lateral grip. It would have been brilliant with 4wd and/or a diff, it was almost invincible as it was!

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the 'poor' rear axle. yes, it's heavy, but it's nigh on identical to an E30 BMW rear axle, and don't forget they are only 2wd, and the E30 M3 isn't exacly know for it's bad handling now!

 

I never even had a rear anti roll bar on the corrado and it didn't feel THAT bad. The body roll got a bit scary, as did the drivshafts rubbing on the rear chassis legs, but that's why I've taken it off the road, to sort it all out.

[vr6banana 0]

the Corrado was much better handling than the Golf, rear end gave little or no feel and I couldn’t/daren’t keep up as much corner speed with the golf. I always asked myself why no Rallye had ever put in a good lap time on any of the track days I’ve seen, could it be because they couldn’t drive?? could it be because they didn’t dare push there pride and joy?? or could it be because they don’t handle as well as we think they ought to?? I don’t know the answer but I won’t use the Rallye/syncro rear end again.

 

I could be wrong but I’ve altered the settings and the rear end never felt a patch on the old rear beam and it’s not as if I was cutting costs with the suspension/bushes/tyres etc

[PhatVR6 0]

it's because the syncro system isn't THAT good, and you have to let it understeer a bit before the rear diff does anything, that's how it works, when the viscous coupling sneses a speed difference between the front and rear axles. and most people back off the throttle to tuck the front end in when it starts to understeer, when in fact they should just wait for the diff to kick in, which it will, just not as quick or as fiercly as the haldex does.

[vr6banana 0]

that’s if your running a rear diff but surely that means that the diff is possibly making up for a short coming with the rear suspension, if I went 4x4 I think I’d make the rear suspension and not use the syncro/rallye rear axle

 

I don’t have a problem with 4x4 just the rear axle they use