Clutch failure(?) - FIXED, was hydraulic AND friction!

[ProdigalSon 1]

My gear change has been notchy for a while, and the bite point of the clutch has been fairly low to the floor too (two separate issues?), so I thought I'd do something about it.

 

Changed my gearbox oil a couple of days ago in the hope that it would give smoother changes, but has not made finding gears easier or actually getting the gearstick into position.

 

Got up early this morning to do the gear linkage adjustment (as per the stickied guide), and locating the gears is better now, although going into reverse still has a sticky point about halfway up the travel of the gearstick...

 

Also tried bleeding the clutch master and slave cylinders again (did them on Friday night after the gear oil), and there was an almost endless stream of bubbles :shocked!: :( (Didn't drive it yesterday)

 

Was using a valved bleed line, and am certain that no air was going back up the pipe into either of the bleed nipples, but ended up running 1 litre of brake fluid through, and just about got to the point where the bubbles were so small they could only just be seen close up.

 

However, the clutch feels no better than before, in fact, you can hear and feel the cogs scraping when trying to get into gear, even with the pedal floored hard.

 

I realise that it could be (in rough order of probability):

 

Knackered clutch slave cylinder

Broken/worn out clutch (in that special way the Corrado rewards you when you fix something by breaking something else :roll: )

Knackered clutch master cylinder

Air in the hydraulic lines

Other?

 

Basically undrivable - so what do I do?

 

Especially gutted that it's the Oxford mini meet this afternoon and I can't drive my C there :cry:

[dr_mat 0]

Sounds more like it's the master or slave clutch cylinders to me. If the clutch had failed you'd either be slipping in-gear all the time or the release bearing would be making nasty noises.

[Toad 0]

As the D. says I'd try a new slave cylinder. Have you got any brake fluid at the bottom of the bell housing? Mine used to leak badly and left a trail of brake fluid around the place.

 

You can recon them I believe, although I came across a nearly new one that I fitted.

 

Not sure If I have a spare knocking around here though...

[boost monkey 0]

I think we pulled a spare cylinder off Danny's shell that we ripped up, was an ABS unit too.

 

Bro, we should sling that on and potentially order a new clutch anyways as you're prob putting out around 200ftlb of torque on a std clutch :shock:

[ProdigalSon 1]

Thanks for quick replies guys :thumb right:

 

Sounds more like it's the master or slave clutch cylinders to me. If the clutch had failed you'd either be slipping in-gear all the time or the release bearing would be making nasty noises.

Interesting - clutch is not making obvious 'noises', and not easy to tell if it's slipping in gear as I don't want to put it in gear for fear of not being able to get in to neutral again!

 

But, reversing onto the drive was fun - I had to jam on the handbrake because with the clutch pedal down the car kept pulling backwards towards the house... Had to quickly turn ignition off and then release handbrake and rock the car to get reverse disengaged :roll:

 

As the D. says I'd try a new slave cylinder. Have you got any brake fluid at the bottom of the bell housing? Mine used to leak badly and left a trail of brake fluid around the place.

Hmm, yes there is some fluid below the slave cylinder, but it is most likely from Friday when the bleed pipe flew off the nipple under pressure allowing a big gulp of air back in :mad: So not exactly conclusive proof... :? Should clean that up and work the clutch a few times to see if it's weeping, I guess.

 

I think we pulled a spare cylinder off Danny's shell that we ripped up, was an ABS unit too.

We pulled a clutch master cylinder off the Corrado shell, and didn't you sell that already?

 

Pretty sure there wasn't a slave cylinder as it is attached to the gearbox/clutch housing... or did I miss something?

 

Bro, we should sling that on and potentially order a new clutch anyways as you're prob putting out around 200ftlb of torque on a std clutch :shock:

I read elsewhere that the new improved clutch slave cyl is made from resin(?), and is about £40 from VAG, so will get one of those. Will also look into a VR6 clutch, although might not do that before the gearbox is refurbed... Not booked a date for a 'box rebuild yet, but it's looking increasingly urgent! :lol:

 

Priority is to get the car running, partly as it is a daily driver, but more importantly so I can keep my bodyshop appointment on the 15th!

[boost monkey 0]

Yeah you missed something indeed bro, I sold the brake master cyl....one with the reservoir on top?

 

Anyways leaving now, catch you in 5.

[ProdigalSon 1]

Yeah you missed something indeed bro, I sold the brake master cyl....one with the reservoir on top?

 

:shocked!: Sweet! Was hoping I'd missed something :wink:

 

Hmm, so I think I'll buy the slave anyway and if that doesn't work, will swap out the master too. And we have the copper hydraulic lines off the breaker also...

 

Glad to have a plan :D I hate having this kind of thing just hanging unresolved

[adevr6 0]

maybe this will help.my symptoms were crunching into reverse/tough and really had to press the clutch pedal to the floor to get 1st-2nd.

 

armed with a new standard luk clutch from europarts,took the box off to find the arm that the thrust bearing sits in had cracked :( .friday night and nowhere open :? ,decided to weld it and refit.had to skim the fly as the cracked arm was mating the clutch to the fly on the piss (distorted fly face} .problem solved 8) .linkage spot on/slick changes/feel. :D :D

 

upping power on your vr should not be a problem either.had a helix race in to take the 300+ bhp{sc}.400 miles no problems'even with launch control 8) 8) .

[boost monkey 0]

maybe this will help.my symptoms were crunching into reverse/tough and really had to press the clutch pedal to the floor to get 1st-2nd.

 

armed with a new standard luk clutch from europarts,took the box off to find the arm that the thrust bearing sits in had cracked :( .friday night and nowhere open :? ,decided to weld it and refit.had to skim the fly as the cracked arm was mating the clutch to the fly on the piss (distorted fly face} .problem solved 8) .linkage spot on/slick changes/feel. :D :D

 

upping power on your vr should not be a problem either.had a helix race in to take the 300+ bhp{sc}.400 miles no problems'even with launch control 8) 8) .

 

 

It's not a VR mate, read his sig! :lol: He's just thinking about replacing his G60 clutch with a VR6 item.

[Neil VR6 0]

Sounds very much like clutch slave and the new ones are resin. Sounds like your 1st point of call.

[boost monkey 0]

ok fine, 2nd port is Clutchtown though.

 

2p.

[dr_mat 0]

I disagree, I think it's far more likely to be a hydraulic problem than the clutch itself.

[boost monkey 0]

Well as i've mentioned many times before, it's doing a lot of the things that my Mk2 16v did when the clutch went on that (rod change box)

 

Would a hydro G60 box replicate problems from a rod change 16v box do you think?

[Supercharged 2]

I disagree, I think it's far more likely to be a hydraulic problem than the clutch itself.

 

Deffo - as the clutch wears the bite will get higher, if it's low then it's a hydro issue...

 

Is the slave still the original cast part? If so it will need changing anyway and if it's faulty then i would change the master too as it would have put more strain on this...

[ProdigalSon 1]

Popped into the local dealers today to collect random bolt bits for boost monkey, and checked on clutch slave cylinder price - £55 inc. VAT inc. discount - does that sound a bit much? Thought someone said the new resin ones were around the £30-40 mark... Perhaps that was GSF or similar pattern part though.

 

Supercharged, the current slave is the original cast part as far as I can see (although I haven't tried trawling through the previous owners' receipts to see if it has been changed).

 

I wouldn't be too surprised if it's my bad bleed 'technik' that has let air in - when I had bled about 600ml of fluid through the clutch circuit and out of the slave cyl, I got a bit paranoid that there were still bubbles, and that the air was being sucked back down the threaded sides of the bleed nipple when the clutch pedal was pulled up, so I blobbed some LM grease around it to make it airtight! :lol: If I'm honest, I ran out of brake fluid before I was totally satisfied that all the air was out...

 

When the car is in gear, it is a b!tch to get out again - really have to yank the gearstick - and vice versa. Putting the pedal down does very little at all. There's more grind than a Caribbean beach party :wink:

 

Glad that I have a spare clutch master cylinder though :)

 

Quicky question now that I have lots of intelligent readers - if I do need to replace the clutch (which will be the case eventually), can I just swap in the VR6 variant as replacement, or is it more complex than that?

 

However, before any of that, I will do a proper bleed: open nipple, push pedal down, close nipple, pull pedal up, repeat etc.

 

Once I have eliminated the fluid itself as cause, I will bite the bullet and go for a slave and/or master cyl swapout.

[boost monkey 0]

Popped into the local dealers today to collect random bolt bits for boost monkey

 

Cheers brotato...

 

When the car is in gear, it is a b!tch to get out again - really have to yank the gearstick - and vice versa. Putting the pedal down does very little at all. There's more grind than a Caribbean beach party :wink:

 

Oh right, like my mk2 was doing... :puppydogeyes:

[ProdigalSon 1]

When the car is in gear, it is a b!tch to get out again - really have to yank the gearstick - and vice versa. Putting the pedal down does very little at all. There's more grind than a Caribbean beach party :wink:

 

Oh right, like my mk2 was doing... :puppydogeyes:

Yeah, but if you think about it, if the slave cyl is not pushing enough force onto the throw-out bearing due to mechanical/hydraulic 'failure', it would have the same effect as the throw-out bearing pushing/forcing its way between the broken halves of the diaphragm plate(?) as was happening on your Mk2, no?

 

Same symptoms, different causes, possibly. Plenty to check out though, and good call on the 'split plate' front, it could yet be that :)

[boost monkey 0]

Well, let me know what you decide bro, as I said I'm happy to swap your clutch out whenever.

[ProdigalSon 1]

/\/\/\ You rule/rock/pwn!* (*delete as appropriate) :lol:

[ProdigalSon 1]

OK, so last night I ordered a new slave cylinder and VR6 clutch kit, to arrive in time for the weekend :wink:

 

This evening I did a proper bleed, and ran about 500ml of fresh fluid through the hydraulic clutch line, bleeding at the slave end. However, every slug of fluid pushed out was full of bubbles, sometimes large, sometimes so small it was just froth :(

 

So, given that it can't be the either of the bleed nipples sucking air back in, I'm thinking that it's either a) the master cylinder leaking air in and then forcing it down the line, or b) the slave cyl pulling air in and squirting it out as soon as fresh fluid comes down the line - dodgy seals in one of these perhaps?

 

Is there any way I can tell which is broke without taking the engine bay apart?

 

The car is due for it's respray on the 15th [Edit: and I will be away for 2 weeks from that time], and I am going to have limited time before then to get all that hydraulic stuff swapped over, and I don't want to postpone the bodywork just because it's not drivable... :cry:

 

Help! :help:

[Supercharged 2]

How are you bleeding it - easiest way is pressure bleeding??

 

Just fit the new slave and try it, then do the master - you can't just do the master and leave the original slave!

[ProdigalSon 1]

How are you bleeding it - easiest way is pressure bleeding??

The hard way: open nipple, push pedal, close nipple, pull pedal, repeat several times (thanks to the missus for being pedal monitor) :lol: At least it is guaranteed to stop air going back up the line...

 

Just fit the new slave and try it, then do the master - you can't just do the master and leave the original slave!

Will do a search to try to find what's involved in swapping out a slave - want to do it as fast and efficiently as possible. If that doesn't sort it, then I'll do the master as well (and it looks like that would be easier without the inlet manifold, so I may as well do my long delayed phenolic gasket also)!

 

Thanks :wink:

[boost monkey 0]

You should check the servo when you do the master too, as that is where all the pressure is coming from when you push on the pedal, and you have said that my pedal bites better than yours even though i'm sure it's made of porridge :lol:

 

it's a POP to do bro, as long as you resign to having the car off the road for a few days, you get a LOT less stressed about trying to get it fixed asap and enjoy it a lot more.

[ProdigalSon 1]

it's a POP to do bro, as long as you resign to having the car off the road for a few days, you get a LOT less stressed about trying to get it fixed asap and enjoy it a lot more.

True story. Will have to do it slow: slow is smooth, smooth is fast :wink:

[boost monkey 0]

Gone in 60 quote perchance?!

 

btw, have you still got that silver hammerite? holla @ me.