Storm Rebuild Advice/Suggestions pls

[MikeVR6 0]

Decided to start a new thread as I have now had the problem with my engine diagnosed and found a reputable local engine specialist to do the rebuild.

These guys are build low production volume engines and gearboxes for VW, Toyota, Nissan, Audi. So they know their stuff. But they are now a tuning house. They don't know about aftermarket mods and such.

 

Here are a few pics they have taken during the stripdown. All these parts have been given a good clean before the photos.

 

Aux Coolant Pump - Possibly the culprit

Pistons - Badly Scored on one side. Smooth on the other

Cylinder Head - All the bores are badly scored

Cylinder Bore Closeup - Really need to run your finger over the bore and "feel" the damage

Clutch - Borderline

Sump - Battered to Death!

My lovely NEW car!

 

Work that must be done.

- Cylinders Bored out

- Oversized Pistons

- Conrod Bearings

- Clutch

- Chains and Tensioners

- Water Pump

- Aux Coolant Pump

- All Gaskets and bolts

- A/C Drier

- A/C Condenser

- Radiator

- Aux Belt and Tensioner

- Replace Sump

 

Now. Since I am going to keep this car for a long time and plan on Super or Turbo Charging it at Stealth next year. What else should I get replaced. Or what uprated parts should I fit in place of standard. Uprated Head Gasket? Lightened Flywheel? That sort of thing. I want this engine to be bombproof!

[volksworld13 0]

i think you can just get 1mm oversized piston ring set from the dealers.so you may not need to replace all the pistons ,only the damaged ones.

[MikeVR6 0]

Might go to 3.1 ltr though as I've read on here the standard engine can still be reliable at that spec. Budget is not the over-riding factor here as the work needs to be done anyway. So best get everything done at once.

 

I'm just reading your thread now volksworld13 as it seems you've been down the same road as me.

[volksworld13 0]

where do you get the 3.1 pistons and rings from.

[MikeVR6 0]

Ain't got a clue mate. But I know it's been done before.

I know about polishing cars not working on the mechanicals. Hence the thread :)

[ziderapple 0]

If you want bomb proof with a mind to going turbocharged in the future then at the very least make sure all the bolts used are ARP. Normally when going FI its best to drop the compression ratio, best way is with new shallower forged pistons, but many use a spacer gasket between the head and block instead which is fine, it just means either you drive it gutless from now until you go FI or you pull it apart again when you do go force fed. Shame you're not doing it all together really. I know though - too expensive. :( All been there.

 

I'd add a new VAG oil pump to the list, new thermostat housing, replace any hardened or worn hoses (or better still go all SAMCO) and look into to some Gruven goodies - crack pipe etc.

 

HTH

[dukest 0]

not sure a blown 3.1 would be exactly bombproof would it?

if you want to turbo it then i'd imagine the advice would be to stay as close to standard capacity as possible but with arp head and conrod bolts and probably some forged pistons. am not an expert though :shrug:

[MattPc 0]

One thing to bear in mind is that when you bore out the cylinders, your taking material away, so the wall thicknes between the cylinder and engine cooling Jacket will become thinner and will be more susceptible to warping under the combustion pressure. I would personally keep asclose to OEM bore so that you could re-bore in the furure if needed.

 

Matt

[volksworld13 0]

am i right in saying you cannot buy standard size piston rings from vw anymore, only oversized 1mm, and these can me installed on the original pistons, with the block being bored 1 mm out, ? :shrug:

id also inspect the big end and main bearing shells, for wear, and replace as neccesary,not sure sizes again, think you have to use a plastiguage to measure for correct shells.intermediate shaft /bearings also need inspecting for wear,damage. id personally going doen the rebore route, as soon as i get the money, and if i wantted to charge it id go with the thicker metal headgasket.

 

can someone tell me where to find arp stuff and what is good, ie conrod,headbolt ect, and the advantages over stnadard equipment, stronger?

[ziderapple 0]

not sure a blown 3.1 would be exactly bombproof would it?

if you want to turbo it then i'd imagine the advice would be to stay as close to standard capacity as possible but with arp head and conrod bolts and probably some forged pistons. am not an expert though :shrug:

 

/\ That man speaks sense. A very well know moderator and lover of all things blown spent lots of money building a 3ltr VR block - it didn't last long at all. If I was going to build an engine for force feeding I'd be using the 2.8 lump.

[Jim 2]

Was thinking the same. Going out to 3.1 is going to bring you a lot of trouble and, given that you're FI'ing it, the 0.2 litre additional capacity isn't going to yield any kinds of results that a stronger engine with a smidge more boost would couldn't achieve.

 

Like others are saying, I'd be tempted to go back to a Golf 2.8 engine - then rebuild and FI that :)

[MikeVR6 0]

Ok. So just bore out the bare minimum. Vince advised 82.5mm pistons and rings.

Just added SAMCO's, Waterpump, Oilpump, Thermo Housing and ARP bolts to the list. Oil Cooler I guess too. What size? Do the MOCAL coolers come with all parts required to fit?

 

Been looking at http://www.arz-tuning.de as they seem to be a fairly well known local supplier (I'm in Germany). Looks like they carry most of this stuff. Although they do "Racimax" oil coolers and the smallest one is 16 row. Any good?

[pete_griff 0]

you'll certainly need an oil cooler if you're thinking of force feeding it - mocal are by far the most "recognised" cooler in the uk, but if another make is of the same quality then it won't make that much difference. i would also use a thermostatic take-off plate for the cooler to keep things nice during warm up.

 

ref the block - you'll want wossner pistons and preferably a 2.8 block that's useable with good bores. also worth getting arp con-rod bolts and some forged con-rods too if you're going FI (don't know much about manufacturers of forged con-rods for a VR, but have a look around). while you're there it's probably worth seeing if the block will come with a crank. yours might be ok; have seen others on this form suffer even greater destruction than you but still have their cranks go totally unscathed - however... defo check yours out before you do anything further and see if you can get holdof a crank with the 2.8 block if you find you need one...

i wouldn't bother doing anything with your block other than sell it for someone else to rebuild it if they want too. if you've going FI then you want nice thick, strong cylinder walls and the 2.8 is quite a bit more common than the 2.9, so that will help you keep your options open.

 

the list you've got so far is pretty good - you'll want a helix clutch to handle the power, i would also consider getting a mk5 r32 sump to go on there seeing as you're going to be replacing the sump anyway. the r32 sump is baffled and i "think" they more or less go straight on - it'll be worth getting in touch with the moderator Kev haywire (or juan sheet at the mo!) as he's got one on his turbo vr.

 

 

sorry to see your old engine like that - true destruction! have you got any comeback one whoever sold you the car, also didn't you notice that there was something not quite right when you looked at it?

 

 

 

edit - the wossner pistons are by far the nicer way to go over a spacer plate (spacer plates will also put the timing out slightly due to the increased length the chains have to cover - nobody seems to mention that!), not to mention the extra head gasket needed (more room for leaks) and the fact that it's basically just not a "nice" way of doing it. you can run a spacer plate for ages just fine, and people on here have done; but if you're after real quality bombproofness, you won't beat the wossners.

btw - do have you a beemer by any chance? (just seen your avatar, and i know what that little light is!)

[monzablau16v 0]

 

the list you've got so far is pretty good - you'll want a helix clutch to handle the power, i would also consider getting a mk5 r32 sump to go on there seeing as you're going to be replacing the sump anyway. the r32 sump is baffled and i "think" they more or less go straight on - it'll be worth getting in touch with the moderator Kev haywire (or juan sheet at the mo!) as he's got one on his turbo vr.

 

 

if you go R32 sump route then u will need the stubbier R32 oil pump too then from what i have read (it has a shorter "spout")

[pete_griff 0]

 

the list you've got so far is pretty good - you'll want a helix clutch to handle the power, i would also consider getting a mk5 r32 sump to go on there seeing as you're going to be replacing the sump anyway. the r32 sump is baffled and i "think" they more or less go straight on - it'll be worth getting in touch with the moderator Kev haywire (or juan sheet at the mo!) as he's got one on his turbo vr.

 

 

if you go R32 sump route then u will need the stubbier R32 oil pump too then from what i have read (it has a shorter "spout")

iirc that's true!

 

like i said - give Kev Haywire a shout and he'll tell you everything there is to now about it!

[MikeVR6 0]

Sold as seen! I checked all the usual things. Missed the aux coolant pump mind.

I think the previous owner had a set of bearings thrown in so he could sell the car.

Silicon sealant around the sump certainly points to that. How to prove it though.

 

It was the drive back to Germany that undid the bodged repair. I wasn't sparing the horses and it was a 500 mile drive. Oil temp hit 138 degrees at one point before I eased off.

Buyer Beware :(

 

So is everyone running a SC or Turbo using a 2.8 engine?

How many rows should I go for the oil cooler?

 

I'll be talking to Vince tomorrow anyway to order a load of bits.

[pete_griff 0]

turbo is the way to go really, also the size of the cooler really depends on where you're going to mount it, what power you're ultimately planning on running, how hard yo'll drive the car on aregular basis etc etc. 16 is about average, but worth having a chat with someone in the know about the points above before you make your mind up.

 

also worth keeping your options open and having a gander at the DG Autotech turbo setup - that's going to be very very nice once it's all sorted.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I want this engine to be bombproof!

 

Good stuff 8)

 

Might go to 3.1 ltr though as I've read on here the standard engine can still be reliable at that spec. Budget is not the over-riding factor here as the work needs to be done anyway. So best get everything done at once.

 

For 3.1 you need longer crank throw. Only H8RRA on year (AFAIK) has been able to achieve that by using an old school ATB crank. His is / was Supercharged and it made some very nice midrange torque, but with longer crank throw the engine doesn't rev so well.

 

The biggest capacity you can achieve by bore size is 2965cc with 83.5mm pistons.

 

83mm is the biggest I would go personally!

 

If you want bombproof, then it has to be forged pistons and con rods, all strapped down with ARP studs and bolts as they are designed for the stresses and forces of forced induction. Many people get away with spacing the stock block, but the factory cast pistons are known to break their ringlands once you push your luck.

 

I prefer to engineer that risk out completely with stronger components, but it does cost a lot more money, but since you've mentioned the budget is quite flexible, it's the way to go imo :D

[tandino 0]

Agreed above,

That ABV block would be used as a rather oversized paperweight if i owned it, i certainly wouldn't be putting it back in with a hairdryer strapped to it after being shaved...

Im sure a 2.8 AAA block from a Passat or something thats had an easier life than a sports coupe would be a good place to start.

And with forced induction your gains are going to be negligable with a 2-300 cc capacity increase if your turbo'd.

Good luck, does this mean i get a spin in August still? (or a drive :lol: ).

 

cheers Pete.

[MikeVR6 0]

Hopefully she'll be back on the road by then. Still compiling the list of things to do.

[MikeVR6 0]

Ok. Considered my options thanks to some Sage advice here. Cheers Guys! :cheers:

 

Not going to bother with doing too much to the block itself other than a normal recondition. So chains, pistons, rings, stem seals etc..

No point fitting the thicker gasket now as it will effect the standard running of the car.

I'm guessing that ARP head and conrod bolts cannot be reused once fitted? So I'll only use them if they are nearly the same price as VW items.

 

What I will do however is have a Mocal fitted, uprated clutch, R32 baffled sump, lightened flywheel and pulleys and new ancillaries if they look like they need renewed. These can be re-used if we do a block swap later.

 

Next year I'll get Vince to give the block a once over before we go Turbo. If needs be he can swap a 2.8 in at the time and at least my 2.9 will be in good nick and sell easily. In the meantime I should hopefully have hassle free motoring. (touch wood)

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Ok. Considered my options thanks to some Sage advice here. Cheers Guys! :cheers:

 

Not going to bother with doing too much to the block itself other than a normal recondition. So chains, pistons, rings, stem seals etc..

No point fitting the thicker gasket now as it will effect the standard running of the car.

I'm guessing that ARP head and conrod bolts cannot be reused once fitted? So I'll only use them if they are nearly the same price as VW items.

 

What I will do however is have a Mocal fitted, uprated clutch, R32 baffled sump, lightened flywheel and pulleys and new ancillaries if they look like they need renewed. These can be re-used if we do a block swap later.

 

Next year I'll get Vince to give the block a once over before we go Turbo. If needs be he can swap a 2.8 in at the time and at least my 2.9 will be in good nick and sell easily. In the meantime I should hopefully have hassle free motoring. (touch wood)

 

ARPs can be reused, that is the main advantage of them :D They are a good investment.

 

I've never really noticed any difference between an 8.5:1 and a 10:1 normally asp VR6. They both seem to pull the same, so personally I would fit the spacer during assembly and save some labour costs. I don't like breaking a good seal for the sake of it later down the line, but i guess it all depends on when / if you force feed it.

 

You can get some juddering and vibration from certain light flywheel and clutch combinations. I use Schimmel's 9lb cromoly flywheel (half standard weight) and with a Helix Autosport 350lb-ft clutch, the judder is just about acceptable.

 

I personally wouldn't fit lightweight pulleys. The crank one in particular serves a useful purpose of absorbing combustion harmonics. If you want the engine to last and be bomb proof, retain as much of the OE stuff as possible because they've done all the R&D for you.

[MikeVR6 0]

Ok, thanks for that Kev. As I said before this is all new to me and I appreciate all the advice.

(If you need any IT advice PM me ;) )

 

Pulley's off the list. ARP bolts back on. Is a lightened flywheel worthwhile then?