VR6 dry sump system Dissertation (R&D Project)

[boost monkey 0]

Hey guys,

 

my dissertation is on:

 

Designing and optimising a complete dry sump system including the air-oil scavenger

 

I have been given free reign on which engine I can do it for, or I can make it completely generic (which doesn't make sense to me).

 

If anyone has any ideas, or was thinking about going down this route for a track day car perhaps it would be good to talk to you.

 

Also, if anyone is interested in a specific application and would be kind enough to loan me an engine block (NO KRs or PGs, have too many already!) that would really help me design a system for that specific engine.

 

For info, a well thought out dry sump system can increase hp by around 10% due to removal of shear forces of crank through oil (based on research on BTCC cars gaining 20-25hp and F1 cars gaining 70+hp). There are many many other benefits also such as mounting engine lower as sump pan is shorter, and it also makes oil surge and baffle plates a thing of the past.

 

I'm not expecting anyone to jump at this at all, but I thought I'd just throw it up there as an interesting engineering thing :D

[mattnorgrove 0]

Could you base your design on the VR6 engine? Would it be technically feasible?

 

If so, could you not then sell your design as a kit/conversion on here? I'm sure it would go down well if it wasn't too cost prohibitive!

 

Just a thought, please bear in mind i have no idea what it would involve physically! :D

[harryc 0]

Does it involve building and improving the design or just designing and modelling?

[boost monkey 0]

Could you base your design on the VR6 engine? Would it be technically feasible?

 

If so, could you not then sell your design as a kit/conversion on here? I'm sure it would go down well if it wasn't too cost prohibitive!

 

Just a thought, please bear in mind i have no idea what it would involve physically! :D

 

Yeah I could base it on a VR6 no problem. I'd need a VR block to see how the oil routes around the engine, and a head too so that I could incorporate valvetrain lubrication.

 

I could probably pick up a dead VR6 on ebay for a bit of money and go from there I guess.

 

It would be good to create a kit at the end, after all the R&D and testing has been done :D I'd have to make sure the pricing and costing al worked out though, no point making a kit at a loss or one that isn't affordable!

[boost monkey 0]

Does it involve building and improving the design or just designing and modelling?

 

I think it is basically a design/CAD based project, but if the design is good then why not make it a real kit? I know I could make schematics and do all the testing (both in FEA/CFD and real life with a test cell at uni).

 

I'll look into it some more.

 

Thanks for the input :salute:

[boost monkey 0]

I've found a stack of info on people making systems for the VR6 and 16v already in America. Looks interesting.

 

Edit: Nothing on the G60 though....

[moneypit23 0]

How about a single cylinder 4 stroke motorbike engine? My 125 was desperately short on power and the engines should be pretty cheap.

 

You probably know this already but it you don't want to unnecessarily over-complicate your project because it will eat your soul and you will rather lick the inside of a bin truck than finish it.

 

That might just have been my experience of final year projects but yours sounds more interesting than mine was: 'Characterising the surface topography of novel cylinder bore roughness' It still sends shivers..

[boost monkey 0]

Yeah I hear what you're saying. Time is tight with the other 6 modules as it is. I guess getting some viable schematics drawn up at least would allow for expansion at a later date.

[mrbeige 0]

Research existing systems, specify a generic system, then focus on one particular application. That's essentially what I did with my final year project, all be it a diagnostics tool.

 

Whether you'll be able to use the design for your own profit afterwards remains to be seen, as you'll probably find that the university will on the IP.

 

VR6/24v/R32 for the win!

[boost monkey 0]

Fair point stu :D so you think the Uni wil say it's their idea? I guess I should find out about that before I even think about making it a viable item.

 

which of the V6s (of those 3) have the same sump layout? I'm guessing the 24vs will?

 

I'd happily do one for a VR, just need a cheap donor block. I could return it to the owner once I had finished with it :norty:

[mort1414 0]

iv got a vr6 engine you can borrow mate

[dirtytorque 0]

Fair point stu :D so you think the Uni wil say it's their idea? I guess I should find out about that before I even think about making it a viable item.

 

 

thats usually how it works mate.

[boost monkey 0]

Fair point stu :D so you think the Uni wil say it's their idea? I guess I should find out about that before I even think about making it a viable item.

 

 

thats usually how it works mate.

 

bumders :brickwall:

[boost monkey 0]

iv got a vr6 engine you can borrow mate

 

Legend! :clap: :salute:

 

thanks fella, I'll keep you updated with my plans.

[boost monkey 0]

End of the day, even if a viable dry sump design doesn't happen, I should have a stack of info about oil flow around a VR.

 

Perhaps someone will find it useful :salute:

[boost monkey 0]

I think it's gonna be R32 if I can, else a VR.

 

Would be good to find an engine, asap. I'm 1/4 way through final year teching period already!!

[Bazmcc 0]

go to the vwvortex and check out the fabrication forum. Also do a search on the vortex for dry sump systems. I'm pretty sure a company over in the states make a full system for the 2.0 8v or 16v. I can't remember which.

[boost monkey 0]

Yeah I been in talks with IMA engineering and also Dailey too.

 

They seem like pretty simple and well thought out systems.

[Purple Tom 0]

If for whatever reason it doesn't work out with mort1414's engine, I have a bare VR6 block and head that you could have.

 

I got them from another member for free recently but currently have no use for them (other than filling up the garage), so if they're to be used for R&D purposes then all good, as long as I can make a coffee table from the block once you're done with it!

 

Good luck with the dissertation though, sounds like a good project :)

[boost monkey 0]

I think I will actually only need a block now, and just a crank in situ with the bearing caps. I wanna see how low the crank spins below the bottom flat face of the block, so I can see what depth of oil plan I can get away with.

 

Otherwise, someone willing to get REAL friendly with a VR block and a vernier caliper would be a plus! :norty:

[boost monkey 0]

 

just playing about in SW, thinking about pick up points and pan design.

 

Would be really good to get some actual dimensions.

 

Edit: Using 6061 T6 Aluminium alloy, weight is coming in at ~6kg.

[boost monkey 0]

 

Dropped 3kg from the weight by reducing the wall thickness of the pan from 10mm to 5mm and reducing the barrier thickness to 20mm from 30.

 

Starting to think about oil baffles, and inserts for reducing aeration.

[boost monkey 0]

Just a quick q: does anyone know if the sump on a VR is the same as the R32?

 

Basically, would a VR dry sump fit an R32 block physically? I know the cranks will prob be different, with stroke changes etc.

 

Any help appreciated!

[swiftkid 1]

Physically they have the same mounting points but the r32 sump is shallower.

[boost monkey 0]

Cool, thanks swiftkid :salute: