Spring rates for H and R springs

[andy 0]

Does anyone know what rate they are, the green ones, progressive type as fitted to a VR6.

[neuon2003 0]

Can't answer the question directly, but the ones I have fitted are marked as follows, which I think are the same recommended for the Corrado VR6. Might be able to use this info to get the answer from the H & R website.

 

H&R springs

H&R X/1

KBA 90445

Golf III VR6

29872 HA/R1

[jimpy66 0]

Can't answer the question directly, but the ones I have fitted are marked as follows, which I think are the same recommended for the Corrado VR6. Might be able to use this info to get the answer from the H & R website.

 

H&R springs

H&R X/1

KBA 90445

Golf III VR6

29872 HA/R1

 

Good luck with the H & R site- it tells you sweet diddly, just pretty pictures

[boost monkey 0]

Using neuon's data, I have found this: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.h-r.com%2Fbin%2F29872.pdf

 

it doesn't give spring rates, but seems to be a tech document based on the part number of the springs. As you can see, they're listed as Corrado VR6 (and Golf/Vento) springs with a green coating.

 

I wonder whether you can calculate the spring rates from the wire diameter and amount of turns, knowing thay they're steel? Might give you a rough approximation.

 

Failing that, some workshops will have a spring rate tester if they do a lot of suspension work so worth phoning some places and see if they'll do them for a tenner or something.

 

hth.

[andy 0]

I've got them fitted to the car at the moment. I've always found my suspension too harsh for the roads where I live. I've done a huge ammount of work to the car recently to improve the ride/rattles but its fundamentally still too hard for me. I've replaced every joint, bearing, mount, bush on the front end, and two brand new Koni Yellow shocks. I've had the dash out and de rattled everything under there. Its better but not really what I had hoped for. It could be the shocks I suppose. I've read recommendations on spring rates (from Kevhaywire) and wanted to know how the H and Rs compare. Someone must know where to find out?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

THe H&Rs are the same as nearly all german 'street' springs for the Corrado, 400inlb front, 275inlb rear (70nm/50nm). They are too hard, imo, for UK Corrados.

 

I use 325lb front and 228lb rear (60nm/40nm) with a variety of different wheel weights and sizes and heights etc and they feel spot on to me.

 

It's not just about the springs though. The better the dampers you fit, the better the ride and handling will be.

[andy 0]

It's not just about the springs though. The better the dampers you fit, the better the ride and handling will be.

Indeed, cheers Kev. I'm not sure whether my biggest problem is the springs or the preset bump damping of the Konis.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

The Koni Yellows have quite a hard high speed bump setting, so cats eyes, pot holes, speed humps etc can be harsh. If 3 way adjustables were more affordable, they would transform Corrados.

 

I remember going out in Dinkus's car which had the same Koni dampers, but with Eibach springs and it was truly nasty. Every pot hole felt like some whacked the floor with a sledgehammer!

[andy 0]

I had Koni Yellows and Eibachs on a Mk3 VR, dreadful! I don't suppose the rates are that different though? Eibachs are German 'Fast' road springs aren't they?

 

Any recomendations for lower rate springs?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I can only guess the Eibachs must be harder. H&R are well known for being more 'forgiving' than other German brands :)

 

Choosing your own spring rates is very easy with coilovers, not so easy with the OE style springs!

 

I've been out in a couple of VR6s with Konis and PI springs and they felt very nice. PI also specify a rate specifically for the VR6 as well, unlike other brands who group *all* Corrados to the same kit. I would perhaps ring them and ask them what the rates of these are:- http://www.pi-suspension.co.uk/pi-spring-kit-sportpack-vw-corrado-vr6-531-19911995-lowers-40mm-80185_p1253994.htm

 

If you explain to them that German springs are too hard and you want something softer, I'm sure they'd be willing to help!

[neuon2003 0]

I remember going out in Dinkus's car which had the same Koni dampers, but with Eibach springs and it was truly nasty. Every pot hole felt like some whacked the floor with a sledgehammer!

 

That might be my car you are talking about as I bought his last one! With the dampers wound back as soft as they will go, it is better but still very firm, harsher than I like, not quite nasty though (even with the shocking roads in Sheffield). I drove a friend's stock Corrado recently and was surprised at the difference; much more pleasant for everyday use.

 

As Andy has asked, would new springs alone make a significant difference?

[dukest 0]

PI also specify a rate specifically for the VR6 as well, unlike other brands who group *all* Corrados to the same kit. I would perhaps ring them and ask them what the rates of these are:- http://www.pi-suspension.co.uk/pi-spring-kit-sportpack-vw-corrado-vr6-531-19911995-lowers-40mm-80185_p1253994.htm

i also happen to have an unused set of those lying around if anyone is interested in them.. :D

[Kevin Bacon 5]

That might be my car you are talking about as I bought his last one! With the dampers wound back as soft as they will go, it is better but still very firm, harsher than I like, not quite nasty though (even with the shocking roads in Sheffield). I drove a friend's stock Corrado recently and was surprised at the difference; much more pleasant for everyday use.

 

As Andy has asked, would new springs alone make a significant difference?

 

It was his first Silver one we went out in. Looks like you might have my old 16" Compomotives there too :)

 

I never liked the standard suspension tbh. I felt it was too firm when it needed to be forgiving and too soft when it needed to be firm!

 

I never tried softer springs with my Koni Yellows, so I can't guarantee it will solve your problems, but there is a strong liklihood it would tbh. I used to like my H&R/Koni combo at high speed, where the package seemed to gel a lot better, but at slower speeds over lumpy roads it was terrible. I then upgraded to H&R 'Comfort' coilovers and they weren't much better.

 

Then Gaz Gold. Then the KW V3s, which have been impeccable, both on familiar and unfamiliar roads :)

[neuon2003 0]

Yes Kev, they are your old MO's. The car is his second/third silver one.

 

Thanks for the advice. I would love some KW V3s; you could establish my fund if you bought the wheels back?

 

Andy: Apologies for the hijack!

[andy 0]

No worries about the hijack! I have emailed PI about the spring rates. Watch this space. If they're significantly softer than H and Rs I might well be up for a set.

[andy 0]

PI have come back and said (with no rates, grrrr) they are 20% up on stiffness over standard. Anyone know what rate standard springs are, or as a percentage how much the H and Rs are above standard?

[Kevin Bacon 5]

20% stiffer is a good sign tbh. German springs are usally 30-40% stiffer. I asked a dealer what the spring rates were once, and even with the chassis number and the colour of the paint dot on the coils, they still couldn't tell me.

 

2cc on here has Koni Yellows and those PI springs and it rode a lot better than my Koni/H&R combo did.

[andy 0]

Hmmm interesting, 20% does sound about nice. I might be having a word with Mr Dukest then. Bizzare that this info is so hard to come by!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Isn't it! And what strikes me as odd is PI know their springs are 20% stiffer than stock, which implies they must know what the stock rate is (they will have spring rate test equipment)!! :lol:

[dukest 0]

yes, although i'd still want to push them on the actual rates as i know some people have thought they do feel harder. i wonder whether that could be down just to the fact that they are a noticeable drop from standard and so its the reduced travel giving an effect too?

[jimpy66 0]

PI have come back and said (with no rates, grrrr) they are 20% up on stiffness over standard. Anyone know what rate standard springs are, or as a percentage how much the H and Rs are above standard?

 

Andy-

I had H&R 'street' coilovers, including Bilsteins when I bought the car. They were rock hard, and lowered until tyres level with arches. I raised them to something like 30mm below OEM height and frankly, you couldn't really tell the difference in ride comfort - they just didn't bottom out so much.

 

I then fitted OEM springs/OEM Boge shocks and apart from the height, the difference is frankly subtle. At speed, there's much more travel as you would expect and therefore pretty smooth ride. A little more roll, but little real difference at all until you push car near limit. Around town, OEM is only slightly better. I'd say that the biggest influence here is the damping rate. The springs are more firm than hard, but hit a pothole or rut and you really feel the impact. Over more undulating roads, it become obvious that the springs are reasonably pliant.

 

I'm v interested to see how you get on with this because it sounds like you are trying to acheive the kind of spring/damper rate I'm after.

Edited February 16, 2011 by jimpy66

[dukest 0]

Isn't it! And what strikes me as odd is PI know their springs are 20% stiffer than stock, which implies they must know what the stock rate is (they will have spring rate test equipment)!! :lol:

Just thought I'd try and help this along so I rang them up (http://www.p-i.co.uk/ as opposed to http://www.pi-suspension.co.uk/ who seem to be just a branded retail website).

 

The guy basically said the same and said that effectively they (the importer) just outsource the spring manufacture to a "spring factory" where its likely many of the same brands will all get their springs made and to a very similar set-up. It sounded like the spec given to the factory is "a bit stiffer with an XXmm drop" and the factory dont actually tell them the exact specs they come up with.

 

I would say that he was just trying to get out of giving me the answer but then he gave me the phone number of someone that would make up springs for track work to your own spec so its not like he was trying to save any potential business! I told him I had H&R and he said there would basically be very little difference (other than the added drop). :shrug:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Then the only way to find out is get a standard spring tested, but even then, can we be sure VW used the exact same rate throughout the car's life? Early and late VR6s clearly have different ride heights, so what are the chances of the later cars having a slightly different rate?

 

We may not ever find out, but I do know 325lb front and 228lb rear works superbly well :)