Suspension question for vr6.

[Human Joist 10]

I know there is a main link for shocks and springs but most of the discussion seems to be centred around coilovers. My vr has them at the moment but I am not keen. They were on when I bought it last year. My old mk2 golf had them on as well and I was not impressed either. I am leaning to conventional shocks and springs but trying to decide what's best. A friend has a mk2 golf fitted with oe style Sachs shocks or similar and an eibach spring pro kit and his has always handled very well with a good compromise of handling and ride quality.

 

Any suggestions welcome

[DriverVR6 11]

Jim, coil overs are biased towards track use, so I'll never understand why people use the setup on the road. Personal choice I guess.

 

My advice is go for a good set of dampers which are slightly uprated. No need to go for adjustable dampers. I recently sold a set of Koni STRT's, and they were a very good way of uprating from the standard dampers. Add a set of slightly lowered springs (level front and rear and avoid the ones which lower the front more than the rear) and you will have a very nice setup. Good for spirited driving, yet still comfortable. Check all the bushes while you are at it, as a perished bush will make the uprated dampers/springs a complete waste of money.

 

And a set of the Koni STRT's are actually much cheaper than the OE Sachs dampers, that's why they get my vote.

[dr_mat 0]

And a set of the Koni STRT's are actually much cheaper than the OE Sachs dampers, that's why they get my vote.

 

.. unless you happen to know someone who can get them at cost - about £60 the set. :)

 

(I don't, any more :( )

[Human Joist 10]

Right, research done. If I go for coilovers it's KW variant 1 for £639 best price so far. Most people on this forum seem to favour coileys but I am not yet converted so if I go for separate shocks and springs it's Bilstein standard height shocks for £150 all round and then HR springs for £171 then I need to source spring plates etc as mine has cheap nasty coilovers and they did not come with spring plates and other bits removed. I am stuck and not sure which way to go. HELP

Edited June 9, 2012 by Human Joist

[Overmind 10]

I prefer coil overs for two reasons. The flexibility with ride height is good, although you tend to only adjust it once, or twice at most. A lot of people wouldn't be happy with the lowering available with shortened springs.

Also coil overs allow you to set the footprint of the car, so you can corner weight it (which does make a difference on a road car.)

[DriverVR6 11]

Overmind, yeah but everytime you adjust the ride height (up or down) you're altering the tracking and camber. So are you then going to take it to have the tracking and camber done everytime you alter the ride height? Not having the tracking and camber set up correctly is like doing an oil change without changing the oil filter. Or are you going to set the coilovers at your desired ride height and then never alter again, in which case you might as well just go for fixed convential springs and dampers saving yourself a whole load of money. Most people that have coilovers fitted haven't got the geometry set correctly and so their cars aren't handling correctly anyway. So what's the point of having a £400, £500, £600 set of coilovers? This is why I say coilovers are pointless on a road car.

[Human Joist 10]

I am leaning to conventional due to good advice from another user keeping me on a good track. I have looked at Bilstein B12 kit. Also looking at the Weitec shock spring set up. Has anyone used either I am keen to know about the Weitec.

[Overmind 10]

This is true bud. But a lot of people (especially in the vw scene) just want to get low, much lower than fixed spring and shock packages can allow. So geometry and handling is always going to come second best. The vast majority of lowered cars are lowered beyond the ideal ride height, so the suspension is working out of the range of which it was designed for anyway. But that is not a worry to the majority of coil over owners that just want to get low for looks.

[VR6 0]

Hey, he said the question was for me :(

[Human Joist 10]

I like low but not at the compromise of the drive which lets face it is the main reason we own these. They are all about the engine. So getting back to topic has anyone tried the Weitec.

[DriverVR6 11]

Jim, Bilstein have been around for over 100 years and they have been successful in Motor Sport for many many years. They also supply OE suspension to manufacturers. It's therefore an easy choice for me to make....

I had Bilstein front and rears on a track Escort, and they lasted for years without leaking or dropping off in performance.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Coilovers being track biased only and most people with them aren't running the correct geometry is complete and utter b0ll0cks.

 

I've been in Corrados with Koni Yellows and Eibachs and the ride quality was f'kin terrible.

 

You should not be so opinionated and dimissive without sufficient facts and experience to back it up. I have a lot of experience in this area and suffice to say, if people invest in the *right* 'coilovers', nothing and I mean NOTHING is compromised in ride or handling in comparison to fixed setups.

 

The problem is everyone sticks to the cheap coilovers and these give the platform a bad name in general. For those who are prepared to invest more wisely, come talk to me.

 

If you want fixed struts, go with a B12 kit if you want firm. If you want a more tailored ride and adjustability, go with Koni yellow TA's and custom spring rates. 325lb/in front, 228lb/in rear is spot on for a VR6 imo.

 

If you want to corner weight the car (as much as you can do with a fixed rear beam) and want even more flexibility, go with decent coilovers. Bilstein B14 with softer springs, H&R with softer springs, KW V3 with the same rates I mention above, or if you really want something special, go talk to Leda or AST.

[Critical_Mass 10]

I think DriverVR6 meant to say its pointless those people who dont get the geometry setup correctly, having coilovers. I read all the time on ED38 with people casually changing the ride height on their cars like it can be done without setting the geometry up afterwards - that IS pointless. As is cheap budget coilovers that are to lower the car and nothing more... they are poop.

[DriverVR6 11]

FishWick, think you've read my comment all wrong and misunderstood the point I was making.

 

Most people (didn't say you or everyone) buy a set of coilovers off the shelf and don't even think about having them, or the rest of the car set up to make them work correctly. The result is that the car DOES NOT handle any better than standard.

 

I've spent years using different suspension systems (not all on Corrados) and know and understand that to get the best from them you have to look at every area of the car suspensions system (bushes, springs, tyres, ride height, damper bump & rebound settings, pivot angles and travel, etc). Also, the different components need to work in harmony with each other.

 

And when I say that coilovers are track biased, well they are as that's were they originated from. Racing car teams needed to be able to quickly adjust the ride height to suit track conditions, and coilovers made that possible without having to remove springs every time. The custom car scene then adopted them as they allowed them to lower the car for shows, and then raised it back up for the drive home.

 

A properly set up coilover suspension will be as good as a properly set up fixed height suspension. The key is having it properly set up. Unfortunately, how many people with coilovers adjust the ride height and then go and get the geometry reset, minimum tracking and camber? Take a look at how many second hand alloys get sold with tyres that have their cords showing on the inner side. It never ceases to amze me that people spend mega bucks on suspension systems (coilover or fixed) and forget about the basics. Simply money down the drain.

 

PS. I had a "custom" set of front Leda's for a mk1 Escort RS2000, and they were very very good. (Leda front struts with 175lb -1inch springs and adjustable track control arms and roll top mounts. Bilstein Group A rear dampers with 85lb single leaf -2inch springs. 5 linked axle, poly bushed throughout)

Edited June 12, 2012 by DriverVR6
spelling

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I must apologise, I re-read my reply and it came across harsher than was intended!

 

I'd say the car handles worse than standard with cheap coilovers. I honestly despair every time I see posts about sub £300 coilover kits because I know just how bad they will be. Doing anything to the suspension alters the dynamics the factory carefully dialled in. It's why some makers like BMW fix everything into place with no adjustment, because they don't want you faffing around with it and potentially killing yourself. But who in their right mind would tamper with an M3 or M5 anyway? Some people do!

 

What folk need to do is isolate what it is they don't like about their car's handling and tackle it in the right way. For me, I've always felt VW's 6 cyl cars are under-damped, but the travel is plentiful. One way to tackle that would be to fit slightly uprated or adjustable dampers. But folk just can't get on with the VR6's standard ride height, which admittedly is quite comical. So it boils down to aesthetics for most folk and I think the majority of them understand and accept the handling might suffer when it's dropped.

 

Agreed on the geometry. I've adjusted mine so many times now I can get it 95% there by eye, but it does need a proper 4 wheel alignment doing to be optimal. I've seen some post coilover fitment geometry that's all over the place. Car not equal height all round, -3 deg camber on one wheel 0.5 positive on the other, etc etc.

 

I like Leda stuff. The main engineer from there left and set up Gaz and he customised my Gaz Gold coilovers, which were very, very good indeed, but the quality was appalling, so they didn't last long. My KW V3s have been, so far, the only coilovers which offer good ride comfort, consistent damping and very high quality. I don't adjust them as often as I used to, so have been considering going back to fixed struts, hence bandying B12s around the forum. I want someone to try them before I buy :D

[Human Joist 10]

I stirred up a response with this one. I have now been quoted £490 for KW basic variant 1 or there is either the standard shock spring setup of B12 for £570 or the Weitec £380 or Spax PSX adjustable dampers for same money. The ideas I got from fishwick is that maybes V3 would be better but then I am not after mega low

Edited June 12, 2012 by Human Joist