H&R Springs on late VR6 Pics?

[Jim Bowen 1]

Am thinking of changing from my KW's to H&R springs, (probably Koni shocks from reading the forum)

 

Has anyone got any pics of how they look? Do they use the late smaller diameter spring cap/top plate?

 

My main worry is i've tried two sets of -40mm lowering springs before and both lowered the front too much, one didn't work very well with late top mounts due to top coil diameter etc. The only reason i bought the coilovers was so i didn't drop the front too much, but at the height i have it the coilovers are wound up really high and i find the suspension a bit stiff because of that.

 

Want to get it right this time :lol: Will be the 4th attempt

[Kevin Bacon 5]

The H&Rs certainly don't lower too much. There's pictures in my thread with those fitted. They use the earlier top plate IIRC (larger diameter), but they're cheap from VW.

[Jim Bowen 1]

Do you use the earlier top plate with a late top mount?

 

---------- Post added at 3:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 3:51 PM ----------

 

This is the height of mine on the KWs, the back won't actually go any higher than that and i just did the front to match as best as i could.

 

[CazzaVR 0]

My storm has Koni and hr combo. There's some pics in my gallery thread. Really like them.

[Jim 1]

Be interested to hear how you get on - I have Bilsten dampers and KW springs and find the combo doesn't work very well - seems quite "bouncy" on uneven roads.. have been pondering different springs for some time!

[Kevin Bacon 5]

What's the spring poundage Jim and what model of Bilstein? Bouncing suggests under-damped for the springs. They should really be bought as a matched set, or use adjustable dampers to fine tune them to the springs.

 

The B12 kit isn't bouncy from what I've heard / read about it and that uses Eibach springs.

 

Having said that, a lot of german kits are bouncy but the H&R / Koni combo is excellent. A bit harsh on busted up roads but the faster you go, the better it gets.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Kevin Bacon

[Jim 1]

Really not sure on the spring poundage mate :( I'll have to have a dig through my paperwork and see if it's in there. The dampers are, I'm fairly sure, the Bilstein B12's and the KW springs were bought separately - so it does just seem I need to look into alternative springs. They certainly look right for the VR - in terms of the ride height is even the whole way round.. but I just don't think they suit the dampers for whatever reason.

[emu 0]

Koni + H&R Believe - 30, 35 or 40 mm

 

 

Old strut from my green VR, Koni + H&R

 

 

 

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Have a look at the spring coils Jim. On one of them there should be a number that gives you the length and rate. For example, on my V3s, the front was 70/200. That translates as 70nm/cm (400inlb in old money) and 200mm length.

 

The V3s were quite bouncy unless the damping was turned right up, but the difference with that kit compared to others I used was the ride quality didn't worsen. Bounciness seems to be a common trait of german suspension. We've all seen the famous 911 nose bounce!!

 

I think the only way to get 100% satisfaction is custom spring rates and valve damping, but with all due respect, not many folk know where to begin with that. Gaz were like that. They could build to your requirements and the ones I had (Gold coilovers) performed superbly, but the quality was terrible.

 

Aside from them, there aren't really any reasonably priced English suspension makers. You've got Leda & Nitron but they're well into 4 figures for the kind of ride / handling compromise you're after.

[Jim Bowen 1]

Cheers for the pics.

 

Back end looks a bit higher than the front to me, also looks like they fit a late top plate.

 

Been looking at places to order them and there seems to be two sorts of springs, some mention ABE?

[Dan_Storm 0]

Jim, I've got the H&R/Koni combo on mine. I personally find the ride too harsh on poor road surfaces. As Kev said, they seem to be better at higher speeds. Interestingly I've been thinking about going the KW route for a while as I heard the ride quality was pretty good...

 

I'm not that far from you and would happily take you for a spin to give you an idea of the ride quality.......but the Storm is off the road at the moment until I have funds for a new coilpack & HT leads :(

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I wonder if some of the H&R/Koni's harshness is to do with the bump settings in the dampers because the H&R springs aren't that hard. Low and high speed bump (or compression) can't be adjusted unfortunately. You can only adjust the rebound.

 

Just to remind folk of the different damper characteristics:

 

Low speed bump - The damper compressing slowly: brake dive, turn-in, driving up a kerb, B road undulations etc

 

High speed bump - The damper compressing quickly: Potholes, speed bumps, cats eyes etc.

 

Rebound - The damper returning to it's static state. This is the one that makes the car feel more 'planted' and sporty. It's the setting we notice the most and is usually the only adjustment offered.

 

Damper manufacturers would prefer that we trust their judgement on the bump settings, especially the high speed one, but KW do at least give you a low speed adjustment on the V3s.

 

Personally I think user adjustment of high speed bump would solve a few crashiness issues, but in order to get 3 way adjustable kits, you're looking at the wrong side of £2500. But if you consider what some peeps spend on their Corrados on superficial stuff, personally, I'd rather sink more into getting the car to corner and ride properly.

 

And just to reiterate, 'coilovers' (or ride height adjustable to use the correct term) as a configuration isn't crashy. They can be way softer than the standard setup if so desired. It's the technology and settings that determine the ride quality. Just thought I'd throw that in as many people automatically associate crashiness to coilovers. It's the cheap £250 ebay specials that give the configuration a bad name.

 

I tend to think of suspension as a tailored suit vs an off the peg Moss Bros one.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Kevin Bacon

[pbradley98 0]

Here's another pic for you of H&R / Koni TAs in the snow!

[Jim Bowen 1]

Got car back yesterday and the garage reckon the problem is my suspension is too firm which is causing the bad handling.

 

Is it the springs that make suspension too stiff?? Am wondering whether its possible to get some custom springs on the KW's? What is the point of the helper spring? Can that be ditched and a longer single spring be put in?

 

Or, i try some Koni shocks on the rear with some springs?

 

Don't know what to do now, but i'm just driving the car a bit slower on crap roads now. In fact i can't drive fast anywhere really :lol:

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I think all the KW kits use the same spring rate (400inlb front, 275inlb rear). The ride quality was excellent on my V3s, so it's got to be the dampers. They are what cost the money. The springs are practically worthless. As I said in my lengthy post above, the preset high speed bump is often too firm on these kits, but dropping down to KW's softer spring option (325inlb front, 225inlb rear) may take the edge off the harshness.

 

Don't forget this time of year, everything is firmer: the tarmac, your tyres, your bushes, your c0ck, your damper oil etc etc.

 

A low ride height doesn't help matters either, but I don't think you're a member of the slam brigade though are you? :D

[Jim Bowen 1]

Nah, i'm not one for lowering too much, just couldn't bear looking at the standard ride height (plus when i bought the car the standard suspension was past it so needing changing anyway)

 

I have been wondering if the fact i don't have much movement in the springs is what has made it so stiff. Or will the spring be just as compressed if i wind it down which would also lower the car.

[DriverVR6 11]

To get good handling and comfort, everything needs to work in harmony.

 

The dampers, springs, bushes, tyre pressures, chassis/bodyshell stiffness and the suspension geometry has to work together. The more adjustment/variables you have (damper rebound and bump settings, ride height changes) the harder it will be to set up to give good handling and comfort.

 

I've lost count the number of times I've come across cars with modified suspension systems to "improve the handling" and the individual can't even tell me what tyre pressures they are running!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Finally, the only way that you will be able to tell if your car is handling any better (and not just feeling like it is handling any better) is to take it on a race track and get before and after lap times.

Edited January 25, 2013 by DriverVR6

[Kevin Bacon 5]

Nah, i'm not one for lowering too much, just couldn't bear looking at the standard ride height (plus when i bought the car the standard suspension was past it so needing changing anyway)

 

I have been wondering if the fact i don't have much movement in the springs is what has made it so stiff. Or will the spring be just as compressed if i wind it down which would also lower the car.

 

I forgot to answer your helper spring question. That basically stops the main spring dropping down when the car is jacked up. KW do sell longer springs, but not long enough to allow you ditch the helpers. You could fit longer springs but they'd be the same rate, so kind of pointless and the dampers are designed to work with short springs anyway as the piston travel is very limited compared to the standard setup.

 

It could be you're hitting the bumpstops? It sounds counter intuitive but sometimes fitting stiffer springs gets round that and doesn't always make things worse. The worst riding Corrados I've been in have always been the lowest ones. Everything is on the ragged edge and they almost ride on the BSs permanently!

[Jim Bowen 1]

Its doesn't seem too bumpy and crashy, the shocks seems to be doing their job quite well imo. Its just stiff and wandering over the road a lot with the change in camber on the road or rough repair. I still feel convinced its something in the steering rack/column.

 

I overtook someone last night, and was fighting the steering wheel left and right like crazy as i put my foot down and crossed the white line.

 

Think i am going to order some adjustable rear shocks and some lowering springs and just try that out for now, that's what the guy who did wheel alignment though would be a good place to start. I do have powerflex rear bushes (am thinking i will get another rear beam soon and get it powder coated and fitted with standard VW bushes as well.

 

Maybe this is why VW let them out the factory with tractor ride height, they must of known :lol:

 

---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 PM ----------

 

Have got the fixed column parts i bought off Neil but never fitted them at the time. Might get round to fitting that in the spring

[Jim Bowen 1]

 

Quick video of the setup I'm running.

[Kevin Bacon 5]

PMSL /\ :D How on earth do people with cars like that not suffer huge embarrassment?!?

[Jim Bowen 1]

Been experimenting this week.

 

started off like this

Untitled by AcePinJim, on Flickr

 

Lowered it, mainly the rear, but looks wrong

Untitled by AcePinJim, on Flickr

 

Took the winter wheels off the front and lowered the front another 3 turns

Untitled by AcePinJim, on Flickr

 

Almost felt better instantly, still not 100% but much more planted than it did before, not sure if it was the tyres/wheels or the extra lowz i added to the front. Still going to see this Mark Fish guy about it though.