9a issue with timing - next issue

[sam2.0 10]

I've had a few issues regarding my timing, but I figured I'd start a new one as I'm at the point where everything is timed correctly.

 

I have confirmed that the cams are lined up, the marks on the cam pulley are correct, the crank pulley is correct, as well as the flywheel.

 

The issue I now have is, I can only get the car to start with the dizzy about 12degrees out from where TDC is, and holding revs above 1k rpm.

 

As soon as I turn the dizzy to the 6degree mark (or where it would be as I don't have one!) it stalls. It looks as if the car would run if the fly wheel, using a timing light, would be at 12ish degrees. But the dizzy doesn't go that far around.

 

TDC is confirmed by the flywheel, pulley and the dipstick resting on the piston head. It's as if I need to put the crank on 6 degrees so then the dizzy can sit on 12degrees.

 

I really am at a loss as to what to do. If I do the above, I'm afraid of bending valves.

 

If anyone is near oxford and can come and inspect/ help, it'd be great, but I appreciate that's a long shot!

[davidwort 0]

Did you have the cam cover off then? Were the cam wheel marks, cam to cam, lined up at the same time as all the other marks, particularly the cam belt exhaust cam pulley, I'm only going over this again to rule out shearing of the pulley woodruff key (or alignment slot), the pulley has an inner mark that should be level with the head surface.

[sam2.0 10]

Yes, the top cam cover is off, so I can confirm its in the right place.

 

I purchased a second and cam pulley as my woodruff key was broken, I've since taken the new cam off and can confirm the woodruff key is in tact.

 

To add: I'm sure I broke my original woodruff key when I turned the cam over using the bolt on it. I never turned the engine over after doing this, until I replaced it.

[davidwort 0]

Mmm, seems unlikely, I've only ever seen the key break when valves hit pistons :( or if a pulley bolt works loose.

so to recap:

inter cam marks aligned

cam pulley inner mark aligned with head surface

flywheel mark aligned with gearbox casing 'v'

crank pulley mark aligned with cambelt cover arrow

distributor body mark and rotor arm tip align and on no.1 plug lead.

 

is the no.1 plug lead sensor lead/ring in place?

good compression on all 4?

plugs all ok

 

I'm trying to list everything as there's a couple of experienced vag mechanics I can ask there opinion/ suggestions

[sam2.0 10]

When I took the pulley off, the key was in the correct place, just not attached, maybe its been lose for a while but the pulley never slipped? Unlikely I know.

 

Yes to the above, apart from the only mark I have on my flywheel is a line about 1mm thick, no '0' or 'v'.

 

Yes, sensor on ht lead 1, its not been off during the work I've done.

 

Re done compression today, all good, from 185 to 195.

 

Plugs only 1500 miles old!

[Supercharged 2]

Sam - this is the 5th thread you've started about the same bl00dy timing issue - PLEASE keep the info to one thread, it makes it far easier for others to see the history and also the conclusion when you finally get it sorted!

[sam2.0 10]

Sam - this is the 5th thread you've started about the same bl00dy timing issue - PLEASE keep the info to one thread, it makes it far easier for others to see the history and also the conclusion when you finally get it sorted!

 

Gee, thanks for the support.

 

I started an other thread as it draws more attention, threads hardly get replied to here, so I wanted to make it a new one to try and get one or two replies. For such a 'busy' forum there really is a lack of people willing to help, it seems the same 3 or 4 people responding, even they seem to go off a older topic and not reply.

 

My next move, I think, is to advance the cam timing to bring the dizzy back into the middle of its scope, then that'll allow me to run the dizzy the extra 6degrees I need to line up the fly wheel. Could this be because my car has aftermarket cams?

[bmwcompact 10]

There are limits to what help can be given!

 

All the technical info given over the last 3 weeks has been given in good faith. However it appears that either something is wrong with what you are doing or with your car. Without being there with you its hard to decide which is the case. Given that you have had running issues with your car almost non-stop for the last year, most recently resulting in the head gasket replacement, its possible your present issue may not be just a timing issue????? Its so difficult to diagnose at a distance and usually ends up with lots of unnecessary work being done/parts being bought. You replaced dizzy, coil, plugs, leads, and were talking about injectors/fuel pump before moving onto the head.

 

My 9a will tickover OK if the belt is one tooth astray-its only on the road you realise power is down so something is wrong. My 9a will tickover over almost the whole movement range of the distributor. So if yours wont after you've been trying for 3 weeks theres something not right?????

 

I am surprised that others have continued trying to help. I dropped out at the point where I felt you needed an experienced pair of hands by your side and said so.

 

The point of a continuous thread is so that the whole story can be seen. In general, if no responses are coming you simply keep 'bumping' the thread until they do. You used to post photos. Despite requests from davidwort, there is not a single photo for this saga to confirm what you have seen/have done. Photos sometimes help-its surprising what an experienced eye can sometimes see.

 

Perhaps you have also not realised that a moderator/super moderator's job is to give sound advice on the best way to use the forum.

 

I hope someone comes forward to help and you eventually get there.

[sam2.0 10]

I have had many issues with the car, but previous issues have been sorted (such as my alternator not working). The car had run fine for 5 months prior to the issue when starting up, turns out this was due to water getting into cylinder 1 via the HG.

 

The whole range of the dizzy is probably 25degrees, so it seems strange why yours is not very sensitive but mine is, this is my thinking towards it being so far out it won't idle its self.

 

I get the idea of 1 thread, and what the mods are there to do, I run my own car forum and multiple threads also seems to be the best way to get people to keep reading. I've bumped the last thread several times with no comments. I can take photos of the markings lining up, and I can compare them to loads of others I've seen where people have said its correct.

 

All I'm asking for is people who've done this before, or are well known to the 9a to put forward suggestions as to what I could check to ensure everything else is ok. My car IS aligned 100% on the markings and it idles roughly and eventually stalls. So if the timing is correct, something else is possibly up, regardless if the car worked, idled and pulled through the revs before I started this job.

[vw rule 19]

Haven't you done that job yet, I'm only kidding mate.

 

Yeah it does seem a strange one this :scratch:

 

Every thing does seem to be pointing to the valve timing,

if the car doesn't run at all or not for long with the distributor in the correct place.

But then you say once the distributor has been advanced up a lot fervor than where it should be it runs fine.

Unless it's a faulty distributor ? But these normally don't work at all when they die.

 

There are two knock sensors on the 16 valvers that check for pre-ignition,

but I can't see that would course the error you have if they were not working,

they normally course a very slight misfire when they blow,

as they are unable to communicate with the ignition control unit / ECU.

 

You mentioned that you weren't sure if your car has had up graded cams fitted in the past,

I think a longer lobe on the cams may course a little rough running at idle but then should run fine once your driving.

Unless they are up graded cams and the slot on the back of the exhaust cam where the distributor fits in to is out,

as it could be different from that of a standard cam, which would course you to advance the timing round, so to speak,

but then you have said it was running fine before the work was carried out, so don't know :scratch:

 

Yeah don't know it's a real strange one this.

 

Yeah there's something out somewhere,

it just seems so strange that you've god the engine timed up correctly but you've got to advance the dizzy round so much more,

for it to be running fine.

 

Is there anyone on this Corrado Forum living not far from you, who my be could pop round and just check everything you've done so far,

as I think someone has already mentioned, as two minds are better then one or try your local workshop garage ?

 

If I think of anything else I'll let you know.

 

Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

Si :thumbleft:

[DriverVR6 11]

I'm very confused by this. As others have said as long as the cams are lined up with the marks and you have the engine at TDC and the distributor pointing to the mark to fire on cylinder no 1 then it should start and run. Mine idles even if you move the distributor throughout its timing range.

 

I recently replaced the head gasket on mine. On refitting I just lined up all the various components/marks, turned the key and it worked fine.

 

There has got to be something fundamentally wrong with what you are doing.

 

Where are you based???

 

Apologies, just see that you mention you are in Oxford so a little too far for me to come and help. Sorry.

Edited March 21, 2013 by DriverVR6
Asked question which was already answered

[Wullie 1]

Thinking about this now there is an aftermarket cam in the scenario. If the timing marks on the camshaft pulleys are in line and the marks on the camshaft chain sprockets are also in line then the only other link in the scene is the slot in the exhaust cam which the distributer drive fits into. I think, repeat, think this should be horizontal and in line with the head. This being in the wrong position would give the problem you are having. I don't think it is possible to refit the distributor 180 degrees out, or can you? Haven't got a proper answer to these points but may be worth a little research, or if anyone else knows the answer.

[sam2.0 10]

It is possible to refit the dizzy 180degrees out, I've had it off and its just a slot to put the rotor arm into, but it'd allow either way. But, before taking it off yesterday, I'd never had it off.

 

I re-done it all again last night, rocker cover off to inspect the cam markings. Previously I'd just been using the mark on the cam pulley, but with that lined up to the mark on the rocker cover, the cam markings didn't face each other correctly. Sorted that out, and put the rocker cover back on and it still lined up. I think there was an issue with the gasket making the mark on the rocker cover was out.

 

The belt seems to want to go on a 1/2 tooth out though. If I get it toothed up on the cam pulley, then the intermediate pulley, it won't go over the crank pulley unless it's slackened off on the intermediate pulley, which them means the belt is too slack between intermediate and cam pulleys.

 

In the end, I had to put it back on with the valve timing slightly out (1/2 tooth) to ensure the crank was still on TDC.

[davidwort 0]

cam lobes pressing on the valvegear can make lining everything up a pain, cams tend to want to rest just off the marks

[sam2.0 10]

I had to settle with the exhaust cam a degree(ish) or 2 before them being level. Can't see it making a world of difference though.

 

No where local has a Belt to buy, incase mine is stretched. May as well fit a new one while I can anyway!

[bmwcompact 10]

The attached photo shows the driveshaft of the distributor fitted to KR and 9A engines. The drive is offset so that it can only be fitted one way. It should not be possible to fit it 180 out with the original camshaft. I would hope the same goes for an aftermarket camshaft.

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]73066[/ATTACH]

[sam2.0 10]

Interesting, I didn't spot it was slightly off centre.

 

The fact my cams are slightly off, and the timing light shows that I'm closer to the -6degrees BTDC mark is worrying. If I was to put the cams off an other tooth on the belt, it'd make the timing right, but then the cams are not in the place they 'should' be going off the cam markings.

 

Keep forgetting to check the lobes to see if I have a after market cam. From memory, my lobes are are not pointy like the OEM cams show on this page: http://wiki.the-corrado.net/16v_tuning_guide.html, mine are very much like the KR cams. Although that shouldn't effect the position they need to be in.

[Supercharged 2]

Just wondering if the chain has stretched / jumped?? This could happen on a high mileage engine...

[sam2.0 10]

136k miles on the clock. It'd have to have happened after I removed the head though, would be very unfortunate timing! (pun not intended!)

Edited March 22, 2013 by sam2.0

[sam2.0 10]

It lives! I didn't adjust if from yesterday, started her up, get te dizzy adjusted so it'd idle and warmed it up, then adjusted the dizzy correctly. Went for a drive and its idling at 1200rpm and te power is flat, wondering if a sensor or something has been damaged.

 

Strangely it will sometimes settle to 750r idle, sometimes cut out when idling.

 

Going to warm up from cold tomorrow and check everything over.

[vw rule 19]

Hello Sam,

 

sounds like your Idle Control Valve could be playing up if the engine stalls and the idle is fluctuating now again,

you might be able to clean it out, but in doing so it will only last short term before it's stalling the engine again.

Check all your vacuum hoses and the by pass breather hoses that fit on to the Idle Control Valve,

just in case they are warn because that would give the same symptom.

 

Regarding the lack of power you have this could be a faulty hall sensor in side the distributor,

the distributor will still work but when you put your foot down you'll find it hard to get above 45 to 50 MPH.

Is that the symptom you have Sam ?

 

When your driving it down the road and it seems ok is it running on all cylinders ??

 

When you say you have a lack of power is it misfiring as well or is it just down on power ??

Plus does it smell rich of fuel or not ??

 

 

Si

 

---------- Post added at 3:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 3:40 AM ----------

 

Hello Sam,

 

sounds like your Idle Control Valve could be playing up if the engine stalls and the idle is fluctuating now again,

you might be able to clean it out, but in doing so it will only last short term before it's stalling the engine again.

Check all your vacuum hoses and the by pass breather hoses that fit on to the Idle Control Valve,

just in case they are warn because that would give the same symptom.

 

Regarding the lack of power you have this could be a faulty hall sensor in side the distributor,

the distributor will still work but when you put your foot down you'll find it hard to get above 45 to 50 MPH.

Is that the symptom you have Sam ?

 

When your driving it down the road and it seems ok is it running on all cylinders ??

 

When you say you have a lack of power is it misfiring as well or is it just down on power ??

Plus does it smell rich of fuel or not ??

 

 

Si

[sam2.0 10]

Took it for a drive yesterday and it got better in terms of the acceleration, I think it just must be crap from a low fuel tank. It was pulling like it always used to, put a big smile on my face!

 

But, it still has the high idle and wants to stall when warm.

 

I've checked the vacuum hoses and air inlets and there are no splits or cracks.

 

Smells a little rich, but it did before I done the work, I will take it to a garage for them to play with the mixture while on a co2 sensor.

[davidwort 0]

It's a 2L on the original ke-jetronic system isn't it? The mixture is controlled by the ecu (electronic control pressure regulator on the side of the metering head) the metering head is calibrated when made, if you remove the orange? tamper proof cap from the metering head allen socket adjuster you may not get the thing set right again, this seems to be the cause of lots of 2L 16v running issues, it's often tweaked when trying to correct for other problems on the engine, just a word of warning :)

[Supercharged 2]

Yep - don't adjust anything on a 9a - the flat power is almost certainly down to timing not being quite right - get some decent fuel in there and take it to a garage while is running ok.

 

Not sure where you're based but Stealth are the 16V experts and can set it up on the rollers for you

[sam2.0 10]

The flat power issue has gone, was just down to low fuel, after slapping £20 in and going for a spin, it pulls nicely now.

 

So, the only issue to sort out now is the high idle and revs staying high when changing gear. Oh and the ignition switch, took me 10 minutes to be able to turn the key this morning!