Converting VR6 to 20vt?

[sharpy-vr6 10]

Hi guys

 

after an incredibly long hibernation from these forums I have decided to make a return. I have spent been far to long looking at my neglected corrado on the drive and its time for some change

 

Now i am probably going to get my sanity questioned here but i want to turn my rado into a track day toy, as its not really in a position to be returned to a respectable daily. And due to the high mileage of my VR block and the added handling benefits of having a lighter 4 pot sitting slightly further back in the bay, I would like to convert to a 1.8t engine for reliable power.

 

I have tirelessly read through the 'definitive 20v thread' and searched for threads regarding a swap of this kind but it seems people with 6 pots go for 24v and people with 4 pots go for 1.8t's, so maybe I'm mad for wanting to go the opposite way.

basically i would like to know if anyone has tried a swap like this before? or have any information to help out.

 

from what i can work out the 20v block should be easy enough to fit just using g60/16v mounts instead of my Vr ones?

but then I'm wondering what happens in terms of drivetrain. Can i use the vr6 gearbox? will i need custom driveshafts? will i need to convert to a 4 stud drivetrain?

From what I'm reading a lot of people used Qpeng to wire up will i be able to go this route for the vr6? or will i be best finding a full donor car to use the standard engine management?

 

any thoughts from you guys would be appreciated or links to articles that could help, i know I'm probably better off buying another corrado or a pre swapped 1.8t but i have kind of fallen in love with the car and want to stick with it.

 

i hope you guys can help and it feels good to be back crawling through the forums :thumbleft:

[swiftkid 1]

If you've read the 20v conversion thread on here and doesn't have the answers have a look on clubgti. Rule of thumb is 6 pot gearboxes go with 6 pot and same for 4 cylinder.

Don't know about driveshafts I'm afraid but I'm fairly sure you can keep 5 stud, certainly can if you need custom driveshafts but doubt you'll need them with all the conversions going on.

As for wiring, I've heard doing a 4mo conversion is similar to 1.8t wiring if you want to use oem management (very easy!).

 

Lastly, I am anything but a purist but I am a 6 pot guy so would recommend a nice cheap 4mo instead with the added benefit of the baffled sump ;) either that or go out the box with a tfsi lump! Buckets of power and tuning available!

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[dragon green 5]

Your gearbox won't fit,have a look in the parts for sale thread,someone has an ASD box for sale,ideal for 20vt conversion,will need a LSD in it.You will need front cross member from a four cylinder car,not sure about your Vr rad,I used my 2.0 one,can't help with Vr driveshafts,

[odub 0]

I'm not an expert but i'll try and help out. you'll want engine mounts, gearbox, front crossmember, custom coolant plumbing, downpipe (look at trackslag.com). A good mate of mine is running a vr rad in his 8v converted to 20vt so you should be ok there. I'm fairly certain you can keep your driveshafts and 5 stud setup as this is a popular conversion on mk2 Golfs, going from 4 stud to 5 stud.

As a shameless plug, I do have a crossmember in good condition, Vibra Technics front mount and a couple of gearboxes, inc a CTN code diesel box that I may be tempted to part with

 

Which 20v and turbo will you be going for?

[coullstar 0]

If it were me Id just get an oil cooler, baffle sump, fiberglass bonnet/boot, lighten interior then brakes and suspension and see how that goes before going all out as it sounds like a pain doing full conversion. You might enjoy yourself enough.

 

Then look at lower FD in gearbox and few other little tweaks. Power isn't everything on track and higher power 20vt's will need progressive boost to stop front wheels spinning up coming out slower corners.

[sharpy-vr6 10]

Lastly, I am anything but a purist but I am a 6 pot guy so would recommend a nice cheap 4mo instead with the added benefit of the baffled sump either that or go out the box with a tfsi lump! Buckets of power and tuning available!

 

the dream would be to eventually have a 4 mo turbo with 4wd, but I'm not anywhere near that stage yet :eek: the TFSI lump did come to mind but I have seen so many 20vt swaps on here that it seemed the easiest and most reliable way to do things (also the added benefit that finding a 1.8t is much easier and cheaper these days)

 

Your gearbox won't fit,have a look in the parts for sale thread,someone has an ASD box for sale,ideal for 20vt conversion,will need a LSD in it.You will need front cross member from a four cylinder car,not sure about your Vr rad,I used my 2.0 one,can't help with Vr driveshafts,

 

I did think this might be the case, I would definetly be looking at LSD to help handle the power i don't know if you have heard of peoples experiences with 20v's and LSD's?

 

I'm not an expert but i'll try and help out. you'll want engine mounts, gearbox, front crossmember, custom coolant plumbing, downpipe (look at trackslag.com). A good mate of mine is running a vr rad in his 8v converted to 20vt so you should be ok there. I'm fairly certain you can keep your driveshafts and 5 stud setup as this is a popular conversion on mk2 Golfs, going from 4 stud to 5 stud.

As a shameless plug, I do have a crossmember in good condition, Vibra Technics front mount and a couple of gearboxes, inc a CTN code diesel box that I may be tempted to part with

 

Which 20v and turbo will you be going for?

 

Thats good to hear about the radiator atlas since mine is shiny new, and as a bonus I'm running slimline fans so that should help with space issues. I don't blame you for the shameless plug I may be getting in contact with you soon if thats the case. The engine mount is that competition or road? (I'm right in thinking they had 2 different "stiffnesses")

as for the motor itself i haven't actually decided, really depends on what i can find i think but ideally i only really want 250bhp max? I would like something manageable not overpowered i mean 200bhp will probably be fine to start with the car stripped out. again if you know of anyone with a 20vt with a LSD or without LSD with these kinds of figures then it would be great to hear how they manage the power.

 

If it were me Id just get an oil cooler, baffle sump, fiberglass bonnet/boot, lighten interior then brakes and suspension and see how that goes before going all out as it sounds like a pain doing full conversion. You might enjoy yourself enough.

 

Then look at lower FD in gearbox and few other little tweaks. Power isn't everything on track and higher power 20vt's will need progressive boost to stop front wheels spinning up coming out slower corners.

 

The problem I'm having is that my motor has done 180k and hasn't turned over in 2 years now so would need a lot of tlc to get to a state that be ready for track abuse. this is why I thought I would look into other options, and was thinking the tune-ability/ weight and centre of gravity from a turbo 4 pot would be best.

I was hoping to overcome the turbo issues using an LSD, not trying to push silly hp/torque figures and being a little gentle on the throttle :awesome: haha

[coullstar 0]

Try the engine first and take it from there, if its goosed then swap makes sense but Id be looking at another VR or 4mo and spend the money on lightening, suspension and brakes. That's the bits that really make a difference on track.

 

I tracked my old VR6T and a relatively standard one and they don't understeer as bad as you think. You could argue the lump gives better traction. Std VR6 gearing is rubbish for the track though.

[odub 0]

I've got a few mates with 20vt mk2 Golfs and a couple with 20vt Corrados and no LSD running 200bhp plus and no real issues. If I were you, I'd figure it all out and get everything that you need in front of you, bolt it all together and get it running well, then take it for a drive to decide if you need a LSD or not. Could save you a few quid. Ultimately they are very worthwhile but could be something to aim for and not worry about immediately. I'll be running 300 plus but not sure on the gearbox I want to use yet so I'm holding off on LSD fitment

[swiftkid 1]

From what you are saying I'd agree with coullstar, strip it out and get it prepped to how you would want it on track, uprate brakes etc and give it a blast. If the engine goes bang you've lost nothing.

Again, not trying to convince you against a 1.8t and also not wanting to start a 6cyl vs 4cyl debate but a 4mo has a smoother torque curve so although peak power figures may be similar (around 240bhp), the torque curve will be smoother and be a bit more weight over the front axle therefore theoretically be better for traction.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[sharpy-vr6 10]

Try the engine first and take it from there, if its goosed then swap makes sense but Id be looking at another VR or 4mo and spend the money on lightening, suspension and brakes. That's the bits that really make a difference on track.

 

I tracked my old VR6T and a relatively standard one and they don't understeer as bad as you think. You could argue the lump gives better traction. Std VR6 gearing is rubbish for the track though.

 

well I have to admit I never had to many understeer issues on the road with the VR and wietec coilys, what kind of power was the VRT running? they are usual about 300+ with even a basic setup are they not?

 

From what you are saying I'd agree with coullstar, strip it out and get it prepped to how you would want it on track, uprate brakes etc and give it a blast. If the engine goes bang you've lost nothing.

Again, not trying to convince you against a 1.8t and also not wanting to start a 6cyl vs 4cyl debate but a 4mo has a smoother torque curve so although peak power figures may be similar (around 240bhp), the torque curve will be smoother and be a bit more weight over the front axle therefore theoretically be better for traction.

 

you have a good point, if I can get the motor running all I need is an exhaust system to complete and it will go. Im having a fight between my head and my heart atm, I have always loved the VR if not just for its sound, but like you say this forum has far to many 4cyl vs 6cyl debates so i won't get started. I guess ill have to do the maths work out what will work out best.

 

I've got a few mates with 20vt mk2 Golfs and a couple with 20vt Corrados and no LSD running 200bhp plus and no real issues. If I were you, I'd figure it all out and get everything that you need in front of you, bolt it all together and get it running well, then take it for a drive to decide if you need a LSD or not. Could save you a few quid. Ultimately they are very worthwhile but could be something to aim for and not worry about immediately. I'll be running 300 plus but not sure on the gearbox I want to use yet so I'm holding off on LSD fitment

 

thanks odub thats good to know, I didn't think i would go Lsd straight off and thats kind of what I wanted to know upfront. if people were having difficulties with say 230hp and no LSD then maybe I would consider.

 

Realistically I'm looking at this as a fairly big project (especially for me) and I kind of want to come from ground up as the cars body work needs some attention and I kind of want to go a bit mad with it (been saving a bit of cash to do so). Probably another reason I wanted to look into the engine as the VR will more then likely come out at some stage of the build and thought it might be a good time to think about alternatives.

 

so the only real question's I haven't had clear answers on would be wiring and driveshafts (although driveshafts seem possible I shall look at mk2 hub conversions and do a bit of research there) so if anyone knows a bit about the wiring side of a swap like this? be great to know exactly how plausible a swap would be to help brainstorm.

 

thanks for your help so far guys, great as ever and keeping me slightly grounded before I jump into decisions :thumbleft:

[coullstar 0]

The VRT was running around 360-380bhp. 3.68FD and pelequin LSD. It was ace and I did two days with no issues at all.

 

See thats the thing with 1.8T its better if your going for big power but then I don't see the point if its going to be 250bhp or less. I had a 24v Corrado as well and day to day it was faster but on track I think there would be very little in it with a VR6 as the VR power is all higher up the rev range.

 

Id say lower FD would probably make the biggest difference all other things being equal.

[sharpy-vr6 10]

Nice and it wasn't a handful spinning up the wheels everywhere, I take it the pelequin saw to that?

 

As for the 250bhp figure I kind of plucked that out the air as a figure I saw as "manageable" on track for FWD after stripping the car. At the end of the day I would like the most power i could get on board and still enjoy it, as we all no understeer is no fun (not like oversteer)

[odub 0]

 

so the only real question's I haven't had clear answers on would be wiring and driveshafts (although driveshafts seem possible I shall look at mk2 hub conversions and do a bit of research there) so if anyone knows a bit about the wiring side of a swap like this? be great to know exactly how plausible a swap would be to help brainstorm.

 

thanks for your help so far guys, great as ever and keeping me slightly grounded before I jump into decisions :thumbleft:

 

What I meant was your driveshafts should bolt up to the gearbox, so don't worry about hubs or anything else along those lines (someone please correct me if I'm talking rubbish). This will retain your wide track, 5 stud setup which is probably also better for wheel and brake choice too these days.

With the cost of a 20v these days they are a good option but I do still appreciate a six cylinder. Long term, if you are looking for more power in the future, the 20v is probably the better option

[Kevin Bacon 5]

I would go for the 225hp flavour MK1 Leon Cupra R drivetrain. You'll get the TT 'BAM' engine equivalent and the FWD 6 speed O2M gearbox. Win win. I believe an OEM O2M driveshaft fits on one side, but the other needs to be custom (shortened iirc), there are companies that can do that for not massive money.

 

Alternatively the driveshaft shop in America can send you a pair of conversion shafts of the right length, which are super strong at the same time.

 

This route does involve welding in some different engine mount brackets though because the MK4 platform uses the 'pendulum' mounting system instead of the Corrados 'support the engine from the bottom' method.

 

Personally I would go the extra mile and do that rather than an O2J gearbox because the O2M is stronger and you get an extra cog. Just depends on budget and what you want from the car.