VR6 Lifter Noise Cold Start and <2k Revs.

[mk2moo 10]

Hi guys,

 

The car was sat for a while, on start and run at first it was quiet now i have the typical lifter noise which is mainly noticeable on cold start and below 2k RPM.

 

The noise was worse before until i did fresh oil change with the addition of some marvel mystery.

 

I am currently running 10w-40 shell helix. I know the best option is the change the lifters, but I don't have the time at the min to go through that.

 

What would be an oil suggestion, iv heard of people using thicker oil which helped on cold start.

 

Any input from you guys is appreciated.

[Rado87 10]

I've recently rebuilt my engine and head but stupidly didn't do the lifters!! I used 10 40 helix too and have recently done an oil change with 10 60 Mobil 1 motorsport. It is marginally better but still has the lifter noise-more so when cold.

 

 

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[mk2moo 10]

Yeah its the cold start which is annoying me. Its like the oil is either too thick on start up to lubricate the lifters or too thin to keep them lubricated when the engine is off. Not sure which way to go with the next oil change to combat it. Don't want to have to try both methods either.

[g0ldf1ng3r 13]

AFIK the tappets/lifters will always be more noisey when the engine is cold started as they are hydraulic. they are that way inherently by design i think

 

i am pretty sure Stealth replaced mine during my head rebuild & the new ones were still loud ish until warmed up

 

how is the noise once the engine is warm?

[mk2moo 10]

After a run I find the engine is much quieter and smoother. Its the clatter on start and interestingly its not every morning.

 

I'd say it could still be quieter on a run as a slight noise is still present, sometimes it completely goes.

[g0ldf1ng3r 13]

After a run I find the engine is much quieter and smoother. Its the clatter on start and interestingly its not every morning.

 

I'd say it could still be quieter on a run as a slight noise is still present, sometimes it completely goes.

 

your description sounds normal for 12v VR6 i would say & i doubt it would get much quieter with new lifters

[mk2moo 10]

your description sounds normal for 12v VR6 i would say & i doubt it would get much quieter with new lifters

 

It does seem a common occurrence, its just i have had numerous quieter VR's and I hate the noise on start up. I am very tempted to try a different weight oil soon to see if there is improvement. I need to change and remove the marvel mystery stuff shortly anyway. Unsure which way to go with oil weight.

[dr_mat 0]

I've had a few sets of new tappets and they all, well, tap.

 

The only consistent thing I've found is that if the oil is well up to temperature when you turn the engine off they are more likely to rain overnight and be noisy in the morning. If the oil was still fairly thick when the engine stopped it'll probably be quieter the next day.

[Rado87 10]

So a thicker oil may sound feasible then, but how "thick" would anyone recommend ?? There must be a limit. Like I said, I'm using a 10w60 Mobil 1 at the moment-seems to help the noise compared to the 10w 40 I was using but still not as quiet as I would like either!

 

 

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[dr_mat 0]

I would actually say choose an oil for its ability to protect the bottom end bearings on cold start, not its ability to stay in the tappets overnight. I would say a slightly thinner oil protects the engine sooner.

[seanl82 23]

The 'W' after the 10 stands for Winter, or its viscosity when cold so as long as you don't go down lower than that it'll be fine and you shouldn't have any problems when starting from cold as far as bottom end is concerned. I run Fuchs Titan Pro Race 10W 50 in mine and as mentioned, it has reduced the noise a little, but not much.

[dr_mat 0]

Indeed, and 10w60 is very thin (once warm) for an old engine. Most people use fully synthetic 10w40s or thereabouts.

[mk2moo 10]

Indeed, and 10w60 is very thin (once warm) for an old engine. Most people use fully synthetic 10w40s or thereabouts.

 

I thought the higher the number the thicker the oil. Therefore running the higher 10w 60 is thicker for those high mileage tolerances.

[dr_mat 0]

Yeah maybe you're right, I always have to look this up.. :)

[mk2moo 10]

Quick thought on this guys. The car quietens down after a bit of a run. Its noisy on start could running 5w40 help this with the thinner cold rating. Or would you guys say no lower than 10 for a VR?

 

I have heard some threads stating 5w-30 however that is better for cold conditions.

[dr_mat 0]

In all honesty I don't think this noise will ever go away no matter what you do..

[Jim 1]

Are you sure this is top end noise and not the classic VR6 bottom end 'piston slap' noise?

 

Honestly, speaking as someone who sank nearly £8000 into two complete VR6 engine rebuilds over two years, don't let this become an obsession like it did for me. The VR6 is, apparently, pretty notorious to tame from a noises and rattles point of view. I simply couldn't see past valve-train noise, piston slap noise, and it was part of what broke my enthusiasm for the car, leading me to sell. Even a rebored block, with new pistons, and the piston slap noise from cold came back within a matter of months. I was resigned to the fact it was just not fixable though I am DESPERATE to know know the underlying reason for WHY it happens, and why it's so hard to cure.

 

The advice I kept getting was - just turn the radio up and accept that the VR6's roots as a diesel engine are hard to shake.

[mk2moo 10]

Are you sure this is top end noise and not the classic VR6 bottom end 'piston slap' noise?

 

Honestly, speaking as someone who sank nearly £8000 into two complete VR6 engine rebuilds over two years, don't let this become an obsession like it did for me. The VR6 is, apparently, pretty notorious to tame from a noises and rattles point of view. I simply couldn't see past valve-train noise, piston slap noise, and it was part of what broke my enthusiasm for the car, leading me to sell. Even a rebored block, with new pistons, and the piston slap noise from cold came back within a matter of months. I was resigned to the fact it was just not fixable though I am DESPERATE to know know the underlying reason for WHY it happens, and why it's so hard to cure.

 

The advice I kept getting was - just turn the radio up and accept that the VR6's roots as a diesel engine are hard to shake.

 

It does sound top when investigating and on the belt side so not the chain/guides. It is a difficult one as i was going to sell it soon and its hard to explain to someone "oh that noise is normal", when i know it can be expected with a VR. I don't want to go that far into it but I'd like to improve the noise if possible by an oil grade change. However it seems like its one of those noises which are there and difficult to get rid of.

[Jim 1]

Exactly the same as I had on mine, as have a number of others on this forum. Like I say, multiple rebuilds, including replacement of things like lifters and even a replacement HEAD and that same noise on the belt side persisted. Specifically from the rear left hand side of the motor. Listened to rebuilt and non-rebuilt VR's that were much quieter.

 

Never got to the bottom of it. It virtually broke me and drove me insane trying to understand the reason for it.

 

Certainly worth experimenting with oil weights as you will find it changes the sound profile. I did find, prior to my first rebuild, Fuchs Titan Race Pro S 10w50 really did make a massive difference.

[dr_mat 0]

It's also noticeable that five degrees of extra coldness one morning will make the car sound completely different that day compared to the previous.

 

I have noticed over the years that with the thinner oils you get less of that characteristic 90s VW cold start whine and more clatter instead. Which one protects the engine more I have no clue on, frankly, but the difference in sound is there.

 

I suspect there's a lot of VRs with noisy oil pump drive that never gets resolved myself. Most of the rest of mine was replaced and yet there's still a strong clatter from the rear of the block.

[Jim 1]

It's also noticeable that five degrees of extra coldness one morning will make the car sound completely different that day compared to the previous.

 

I have noticed over the years that with the thinner oils you get less of that characteristic 90s VW cold start whine and more clatter instead. Which one protects the engine more I have no clue on, frankly, but the difference in sound is there.

 

I suspect there's a lot of VRs with noisy oil pump drive that never gets resolved myself. Most of the rest of mine was replaced and yet there's still a strong clatter from the rear of the block.

 

Yeah - always found outside / ambient temperature made a heck of a difference.

[volksworld13 0]

Intresting note to add to this topic, I'm sure the vr6 has a one way control valve in the head or block leading to the cylinder head oil gallery, if that valve is leaking or faulty oil will drain out of the head thus not keeping the tappets filled with oil overnight and creating an airlock .( I.e letting oil drain back to the sump)

That's why it may take a minute or so to purge the air from the tappets in the morning.??